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:Will Mindcraft II Be Better?
Will Mindcraft II Be Better?
Apr 27, 1999, 23 :56 UTC (55 Talkback[s]) (18456 reads)

(Other stories by Dave Whitinger and D)

By Dave Whitinger and Dwight Johnson

The Mindcraft affair is riddled with suspicious details: NT versus Linux performance test sponsored by Microsoft and run from a Microsoft lab in Redmond, Linux community members not allowed to contribute, and so on.

While the press has been skeptical to accept these tests as accurate, now Mindcraft is conducting a re-test. They apparently hope to gain more credibility by testing this time around with the assistance of leading members from the Linux community. Linus Torvalds, Alan Cox and Jeremy Allison, among others, have all been solicited by Mindcraft.

But Linus Torvalds told Linux Today that nobody in the Linux community is really working on the Mindcraft test per se, because Mindcraft hasn't allowed them access to the test site.

Quite frankly nobody in the Linux community is really working on the mindcraft thing per se -- because mindcraft doesn't allow us access to the test site. So there's really little point. -- Linus Torvalds
Linus concedes that they have given Mindcraft some hints about different things to try, but the opaqueness of what they are testing basically means that it's not worth their time to try to second guess what the problem is.

Linus told Linux Today that his impression was that "Mindcraft" is really only one person (maybe two), and that they don't even have a testing laboratory: everything points to the fact that Mindcraft ran the test at the Microsoft performance lab.

All the e-mails from Mindcraft people (Bruce Weiner and an e-mail alias that goes by the name of "will", who seems to be just another account of Bruce Weiner's) have IP addresses inside of Microsoft. If you look up the original newgroup posting that they refer to in the original test paper, you find that it was posted through a site with IP address 131.107.3.71. If you actually look up that address, you see that it is "tide71.microsoft.com".

Linus suggests, if you've been in e-mail contact with Mindcraft, just for fun look into the extended header information in the e-mails.

Jeremy Allison, also contacted by Mindcraft, provides Linux Today readers additional insights:

Mindcraft was contacted by a journalist after their original white paper. The journalist, who has interviewed Linus in the past, suggested to Mindcraft that they contact Linus for tuning advice. They did so, and Linus pulled Alan Cox, Dave Miller on the kernel side, myself on the Samba side (and I pulled Andrew in) and someone on the Apache side (sorry, not sure who) into the e-mail discussions in order to help.

One of our early concerns was that one of us would be present on site to help advise on the Linux box and to be a Linux community representative in the tests.

Mindcraft was unable to allow this, claiming "other tests under NDA" in their lab prohibited others being on site.

I personally believe (NOTE: *My opinion only* !) that this is because the lab Mindcraft is using is actually situated on the Microsoft campus, in which case I can well believe there are NDA issues with a Linux representitive being there.

(Evidence to support this supposition is located here. -lt ed)

We tried to advise Mindcraft as best as we could under the circumstances (via e-mail and phone calls) how to get the best performance on their machine using Samba and Linux.

Unfortunately, Mindcraft was not able to get credible results on their re-test. Note, I'm defining credible here as "within the same range as the numbers obtained by PC Week, which are close to numbers otained in a benchmark run on an SGI Intel-cpu Linux server in my lab here at SGI" (see this story for the numbers obtained by PC Week using Samba and Linux 2.2).

The PC Week numbers were run in their magazine lab, and I obviously believe my own numbers :-). As an example, I can say that running NT on the same SGI Intel-cpu hardware that we ran Linux on, and applying the same tuning to NT that Mindcraft did, we get nearly identical results from the NT server to the ones published by Mindcraft.

The essense of scientific testing is *repeatability* of the experiment, and I can confirm that we have reproduced Mindcraft's NT server numbers here in our lab. It is a shame that they cannot reproduce the PC Week Linux numbers in theirs.

Without access to the machine there is no way to know exactly why Mindcraft is getting lower results, and there the re-run sits at the moment.

I'm sure if Mindcraft can re-run their benchmark in an open lab setting allowing full access by the Linux people involved then I think we will have a much fairer result.

Note that this doesn't mean Linux will neccessarily win, (it doesn't when serving Win95 clients here in my lab, although it does when serving NT clients), but that we will have a fairer comparison.

It seems very unlikely from all of this that the Mindcraft re-test will be any more credible than the last.

Update (May 4th): Mindcraft has published a rebuttal to this article.


Index Mode   |   Flat Mode   |   Thread Mode   |   Thread Flat  
  Talkback(s) Name  and Date
I say we make it very clear that NO memb ...   Sham Test and legalities   
Nicholas Donovan CEO Linux Systems Group
Apr 28, 1999, 00:45:03
 
It seems to me that Mindcraft's resu ...   repeatability means independant verification   
Steve Poling
Apr 28, 1999, 01:22:11
 
Whad'ya expect from a chickensh*t op ...   mindlesscraft   
herman bakema
Apr 28, 1999, 01:51:46
 
Mindcraft is looking ever more like a me ...   Down the lane   
Case Roole
Apr 28, 1999, 02:04:59
 
http://www.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=471 ...   Will = MS employee   
Cadaver
Apr 28, 1999, 02:26:53
 
The MindCraft office is located in Silic ...   Investigating MindCraft   
Anonymous Coward
Apr 28, 1999, 02:36:49
 
Microsoft, WinNT and Mindcraft are all c ...   Microsft, WinNT and Mindraft a coward   
kurt
Apr 28, 1999, 08:07:04
 
Mindcraft claims to be an NIST approved  ...   Mindcraft - NIST/NVLAP Accreditation   
Sean Marrett
Apr 28, 1999, 08:12:30
 
If the address has a "Suite" in it, like ...   Re: Investigating Mindcraft   
adr
Apr 28, 1999, 08:14:04
 
If they are concerned about bringing in  ...   NDA can be overcome   
Joe Kaplenk
Apr 28, 1999, 08:33:54
 
Why not send this information of Mindcra ...   Notify Publishers   
Joe Bob
Apr 28, 1999, 09:02:15
 
Without a third party verification, what ...   This is not a verification   
Prasad Samarajiva
Apr 28, 1999, 09:22:48
 
Bench marks only mean something when the ...   Mindcraft   
Eric Keyser
Apr 28, 1999, 09:26:23
 
It is insteresting to see inside the Mic ...   Part of MS Strategy   
charles Goodwin
Apr 28, 1999, 09:33:22
 
If they have a "suite" they're a PO  ...   Re: Re: Investigating Mindcraft   
Steve Wilson
Apr 28, 1999, 09:34:36
 
170 Knowles Drive, Los Gatos, CA yields  ...   Re: Re: Investigating Mindcraft   
Jim Olsen
Apr 28, 1999, 10:28:11
 
When Microsoft's IIS ( web server fo ...   Benchmark restrictions ?   
Arun Gupta
Apr 28, 1999, 10:29:31
 
Any possibility that Dell would rent a m ...   Rent a Machine?   
Chris Tyler
Apr 28, 1999, 10:30:34
 
If the follow-up re-test is, as all seem ...   RE: Mindcraft - NIST/NVLAP Accreditation   
John Wolley
Apr 28, 1999, 10:38:41
 
It is clear that MindCraft have no inten ...   Linus, Alan, etc. pull out...   
chazz b
Apr 28, 1999, 11:40:04
 
Forget about Mindcraft!
What if the Linu ...   Linux vs NT test done by Linux community   
Silviu Chitroceanu
Apr 28, 1999, 11:53:34
 
It's no surprise to me that Microsof ...   No surprise   
Jerry Chen
Apr 28, 1999, 14:22:45
 
Any testing should be done by an "indepe ...   Re: Linux vs NT test done by Linux community   
John Alexander
Apr 28, 1999, 14:25:03
 
DejaNews reported the User-Agent on the  ...   Where the test came from   
Scott Fenton
Apr 28, 1999, 15:03:39
 
I agree! Everyone on the Linux "team" tr ...   Re: Linus, Alan, etc. pull out...   
Jay Benson
Apr 28, 1999, 16:18:41
 
One, it definitly looks like it is time  ...   Ideas   
Mark Evans
Apr 28, 1999, 16:52:11
 
Does Microsoft's recent behavior rem ...   "Who is John Galt?"   
Ken Beal
Apr 28, 1999, 17:00:28
 
I actually feel sorry for these mindcraf ...   I feel sorry for these mindcraft guys   
Hao
Apr 29, 1999, 07:42:46
 
Mindcraft should get two teams of expert ...   a fair test strategy   
T Kwan
Apr 29, 1999, 18:15:13
 
I'm starting to wonder who owns Mind ...   Who owns Mindcraft?   
Austin
Apr 29, 1999, 19:36:38
 
This Mindcraft stuff must be taken very  ...   Mindcraft is serious business.   
Stefan Mochnacki
Apr 29, 1999, 21:49:45
 
Let's suppose for a moment that the  ...   At what cost?   
Bojan Smojver
Apr 29, 1999, 22:09:18
 
For the cost of the hardware, NT Enterpr ...   Re: At what cost?   
Mark Evans
Apr 30, 1999, 04:05:08
 
It is sometimes very easy to find the ow ...   Re: Who owns Mindcraft?   
Joe Kaplenk
Apr 30, 1999, 13:20:11
 
NIST no longer has any Posix accredited  ...   NO NIST/NVLAP Accreditation   
Sean Marrett
Apr 30, 1999, 15:58:17
 
If an NDA is used to impair a fair perfo ...   NDA shames Mindcraft   
Bo Vandenberg
May 1, 1999, 11:17:56
 
Just a thought : Anyone tried putting th ...   Spellcheck on Mi-cr-ft   
Richard George
May 3, 1999, 08:13:45
 
This situation is an analogy to the type ...   taxation without equal representation   
Chris Weber
May 3, 1999, 12:48:54
 
Well, if both servers were tested exactl ...   Network setup   
António Vasconcelos
May 3, 1999, 19:04:47
 

If there's a NDA issue because of t ...   Why use the lab?   
Mark Schlegel
May 4, 1999, 22:45:16
 
With prize rebuttals such as:
"A few of  ...   Mindcraft + ethical = BAH Humbug!   
tyson
May 5, 1999, 08:47:40
 
It's hard to compare speed on operat ...   Testing the bottom line.   
Brad
May 5, 1999, 10:54:32
 
Mindcraft obviously won't be taken s ...   A Modest Proposal   
Richard Turner
May 5, 1999, 14:08:00
 
I think that making this into a contest  ...   Re: A Modest Proposal   
Ron Scaccia
May 5, 1999, 21:42:59
 
Your childish and unprofessional comment ...   Keep going like that and you'll kill Linux   
Maarten
May 12, 1999, 07:38:06
 
Hey! Does anyone know if these guys did  ...   RE:Other "Tests" conducted by Mindcraft   
R. Yager
May 12, 1999, 14:26:22
 
>Any testing should be done by an "indep ...   Re: Re: Linux vs NT test done by Linux community   
Stuart Fox
May 13, 1999, 17:11:22
 
>However, if Mindcraft says that they ca ...   Re: repeatability means independant verification   
Stuart Fox
May 13, 1999, 17:13:45
 
>I say we make it very clear that NO mem ...   Re: Sham Test and legalities   
Stuart Fox
May 13, 1999, 17:19:38
 
"Sec. 285.32 Conditions for accreditatio ...   Re: Mindcraft - NIST/NVLAP Accreditation   
Stuart Fox
May 13, 1999, 18:04:41
 
It is quite clear that the linux communi ...   Linux community cannot stand truth   
The Truth
May 21, 1999, 14:27:35
 
Waddyamean truth? Microsoft hasn't s ...   Re: Linux community cannot stand truth   
Jarkko Karhunen
May 27, 1999, 07:41:27
 
I'm not concerned about Linux being  ...   Why use linux?   
David Kyle
Jun 15, 1999, 14:03:38
 
> I'm not concerned about Linux bein ...   Re: Why use linux?   
Wolfgang Scherer
Jun 20, 1999, 07:23:38
 
As a degreed Accountant/Business Managem ...   The real cost of M$-cc: Maarten   
DC
Aug 16, 1999, 20:05:18
 
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