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:Guest Column: Will Open Source Lose the Battle for the Web?
Guest Column: Will Open Source Lose the Battle for the Web?
Aug 14, 2001, 06 :56 UTC (302 Talkback[s]) (120577 reads)

(Other stories by Ganesh Prasad)

It's the applications, stupid!

Synopsis:
This article argues that the shift towards web services has reduced the attractiveness of the current generation of Open Source web products. The only solution is for Open Source to adopt a web services architecture, and fast. Fortunately, there is one at hand, and it's not dotGNU! Can the Open Sourcers wake up and save the world before it is too late? Read on to find out.

Straws in the wind - Why did Apache slip?

It may be true that one swallow doesn't make a summer. But equally, sometimes, the first swallow doesn't appear until summer is well under way. The 5% gain in Microsoft's webserver market share at the expense of Apache is distressing, but if anything, overdue. Apache is like the cartoon character that has walked off the edge of a cliff a while ago, and has just looked down.

This may seem a harsh and unfair pronouncement, but we live in a technological environment where we need to keep running just to stay in the same place. So it's nothing short of miraculous that Apache managed to retain its market share for about two years while essentially treading water. Let's face it, in spite of a few point releases, Apache hasn't introduced any significant user features in two years. (For example, has Apache even managed to deliver a standard GUI configuration tool in all this time?)

Many Open Source supporters greeted the news of the Apache setback with derisive disbelief ("Why would anyone in their right mind switch from Unix/Apache to Windows/IIS?"), but they miss the point. Those users who switched from Apache to IIS did so not for the superior HTTP-serving capabilities, if any, of IIS. That's commodity stuff, and Apache does it well enough for them not to look further. They switched because they had begun to look beyond web servers to web services. Right under the collective nose of the Open Source community, the battleground has shifted. People need vanilla webservers today like they need Rolodexes in an age of digital organisers.

IIS, by contrast, isn't just a webserver anymore. It's being positioned as the vanguard of the .NET server platform. The Microsoft marketing machine is convincing decision makers that web services are the way to go, and that .NET is the leading web services delivery platform. Our low-cost, standard, commodity products were the Maginot line that Microsoft could not cross, but alas, how easily they have walked around it. They have turned the "good enough" argument against us. IIS on .NET is a web services delivery platform, but it's also a "good enough" webserver, if that's all the customer wants today. Using IIS will satisfy today's needs as well as tomorrow's!

What would a user rather have -- a free server that does plain webserving, or a moderately priced one that does webserving plus e-commerce? Faced with such an adversary, does a plain webserver stand a chance, much less one that is virtually stagnant? True, the dramatic drop in Apache's market share comes from just two large ISPs, but will they be the only ones to switch?

Web services - Where we need to go

.NET may be largely vapourware today, but we in Open Source have been amusing ourselves with our own, -- Mozilla 1.0 on the client and Apache 2.0 on the server. How wonderful it's all going to be! Mozilla supports XUL and a cross-platform component object model! Oooh! It's more than a browser, it's an application platform! Aaah! And Apache 2.0 is both multi-process and multi-threaded, it has a new API for modules, and is so much more stable on Windows! Swoon!

We've been so carried away by our own hype that we fail to see that's not the way the web is going. Even Apache 2.0 (when it finally deigns to appear) won't offer any really revolutionary user benefits. It's just a better architecture for a vanilla webserver. What we need today is no longer a webserver, but a web services delivery platform. Sorry, but Apache doesn't cut it anymore where newer web applications are being built.

"Web services" is a simple concept, and its basic technological underpinnings aren't rocket science, either. This is all about applications advertising their own capabilities, searching for other applications on the web and invoking their services without prior design or negotiation. Reduced to the technological basics, it's just XML over HTTP. And the relevant specifications aren't closed either. They're Internet standards. This is classic Open Source territory, an invitation to commoditisation if there ever was one. So why hasn't Open Source produced a web services platform? Why are we still tweaking yesterday's product to make it a wee bit better? This is the syndrome of engineers putting features into a product with no input from marketing. It's a great technical product, guys, but the market doesn't want this anymore.

There will be Apache defenders who will bristle at the suggestion that it is a vanilla webserver. Look at PHP, they will say. PHP actually has greater market share than ASP. You can build fantastic web applications with PHP at a fraction of the cost of any commercial alternatives, including Microsoft.

That's great, but when will PHP grow to become something more than a web scripting language? Where is the PHP enterprise component architecture? What about clustering and failover? Where are the WSDL and UDDI implementations? Don't show me bits and pieces here and there. Show me a framework. Show me a reference implementation. Show me a friendly interface. Not there yet? So PHP has been left in the dust as well, while ASP is morphing into ASP.NET, the browser delivery front-end of the Microsoft web services platform.

What we're witnessing is Microsoft doing an end-run around Open Source in the web applications space.

The other power

All is not doom and gloom, however. While Microsoft has been nimbly outflanking Open Source on the Western front, another power has been successfully engaging them on the Eastern front. Far from being vapourware, this is a real Enterprise architecture, a set of well-designed interfaces, and plenty of stable implementations to actually provide a viable alternative to .NET. That's the Java 2 Enterprise Edition, or J2EE. The trouble is, the way the big J2EE vendors are repeating history is textbook Santayana. Their greed for high margins is causing them to abdicate the low end of web services to Microsoft and .NET. Big mistake. We remember how high-margin Unix workstations ultimately fared against "low-end" PCs.

It needn't be this way. J2EE doesn't have to be an expensive alternative at all. There is an excellent Open Source J2EE server called JBoss, which provides a solid foundation on which to base a platform. Most Open Source enterprise components such as databases, directory services, message queues, mailservers and the like already support J2EE interfaces. What we need to do now is add Open Source implementations of web services standards (WSDL, UDDI, ebXML) and combine them all with a nice user interface (can anyone say "drag and drop"?). In fact, some of these standards are already implemented as Open Source (e.g. pUDDIng). That would be the Open Source answer to .NET.

Java has mindshare, maturity and corporate respectability. A Java-based web services framework will completely turn around Open Source's fortunes. From an architecture-less motley collection of software based on mid-90s technology, the Open Source web services framework will emerge as a proven, comprehensive solution and a compelling direction for forward-looking organisations. So what is holding us back?

The mote in their eye, and the beam in ours

My dear fellow Open Source supporters, I share your frustration and exasperation at the blind spot that most people seem to have regarding Open Source. I share your pain when they simply don't get it. However, forgive me for pointing out your own football-sized blind spot about Java. I'm afraid you don't get it either.

"Java is not free", the refrain goes. That's right, it isn't. But does that mean we shouldn't touch it with a barge pole? Does it justify all the nonsense about dotGNU and Mono, the Open Source implementations of .NET? Of all the architecture ideas in this world, did we have to go and embrace .NET? To our eternal mortification, we are again reduced to chasing tail lights. A proud Unix community is letting a desktop application company teach it how to build distributed enterprise applications. The shame of it! In our eagerness to snub Sun, we are legitimising Microsoft and belittling ourselves.

We can quibble about whether dotGNU will help or hurt Microsoft. We can argue about whether it will help or hurt Open Source. But there's no denying that it will hurt J2EE by strengthening the appeal of an alternative architecture and technology. It's like allied bombers suddenly starting to blitz Moscow instead of Berlin. Wrong city, or at the very least, awful timing.

"Your points are valid, Mr. Prasad, but you need to be lecturing Sun, not us." Right. Our house is burning, but we're not going to do a thing because it's the fireman's job to put it out. Don't look at us.

"Sun is a bunch of control freaks just like Microsoft. Why exchange one tyrant for another?" Because Sun simply doesn't have the exclusive power over Java that Microsoft has over any of their technologies. The community participation in Java is too far advanced for Sun to wrest back control now. Once we build Open Source implementations of Java virtual machines, compilers and libraries (we're almost there), we don't need Sun at all. They can't change the Java spec without breaking their own (and their partners') products. If we can implement J2EE with half the zeal some of us are trying to implement dotGNU, we'd be far better off.

"But Java is slow, as everyone knows". Can we do better than regurgitate second-hand comments dating from 1995? Because, by the same token, Linux is a command-line environment, as everyone knows. Tried server-side Java lately? That's a good example of what "Enterprise-class" means, with all its requirements for robustness, scalability and performance.

Now this is going to be controversial and will not win me many friends, but I think the Open Source community has to get real about a couple of things. There is nothing in the Open Source stables to match J2EE (No, CORBA is a poor alternative). Linux and Open Source alone cannot beat Microsoft and make the world safe for open standards. Open Source needs Java's help to beat off Microsoft. We need to swallow our pride, ideology, or whatever else is standing in the way of our embracing Java. If there is one thing I'm asking of my readers, it is a commitment to be at least open-minded about Java.

Pragmatism, or One thing at a time

Churchill and Roosevelt knew they had to ally with Stalin to beat Hitler. It took another forty years to liberate Stalin's empire, but ultimately both battles were won. If they had been pigheaded about Stalin in the first place, we would all be living in the Third Reich right now.

Yes, we need to fight to make Java free, but that's tomorrow's battle. Today, the Anschluß of Austria has occurred, and it's a wake-up call. In a few years from now, it will either be a Java-Linux world, or a .NET world. The choice is ours.

References and further reading

About the author

Ganesh Prasad is a Sun Certified Java Programmer, a web architect by profession and a Linux user by choice. He is a devout follower of the pro-humanity Java-Linux religion. When depressed, he tries to cheer himself up by reading his own optimistic article of 2000, "The coming Java-Linux duopoly".

 Copyright
(c)2001Ganesh Prasad.  Permission is granted to copy, distribute
and/or modify this document under the terms of the GNU Free
Documentation License, Version 1.1 or any later version published
by the Free Software Foundation; with no Invariant Sections, no
Front-Cover Texts and no Back-Cover Texts.  A copy of the license
is available at http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/fdl.html.

Index Mode   |   Flat Mode   |   Thread Mode   |   Thread Flat  
  Talkback(s) Name  and Date
is that sun needs oss community to back  ...   What is sad, ...   
g.r.r.
Aug 13, 2001, 14:48:40
 
One of the biggest concerns that I see f ...   features vs. stability   
Mark
Aug 13, 2001, 14:52:01
 
When I visit www.apache.org ... all I ge ...   Visiting Apache.org   
Kent Nguyen
Aug 13, 2001, 14:58:11
 
How quickly IIS will lose market share d ...   I can't help but wonder...   
Nicholas Donovan
Aug 13, 2001, 14:58:16
 
This is 100 percent on-target.  The open ...   Dead on!   
Art Cancro
Aug 13, 2001, 14:59:18
 
Is it possible to implement WSDL, UDDI,  ...   Apache modules   
hey
Aug 13, 2001, 15:03:45
 
Some Linus Torvalds reading out there?
 ...   Bravo!   
Daniel
Aug 13, 2001, 15:04:55
 
I hate to point this out, but:

1.)  H ...   Huh?   
J. J. Horner
Aug 13, 2001, 15:07:13
 
> One of the biggest concerns that I see ...   Re: features vs. stability   
Dean Pannell (a.k.a. dinotrac)
Aug 13, 2001, 15:21:35
 
Maybe I am slow but I have yet to hear o ...   so what   
Alan Johnson
Aug 13, 2001, 15:21:42
 
I've learned a lot from Java, its we ...   post Java experiments   
AnonCow
Aug 13, 2001, 15:26:15
 
> I'm not convinced that we *need* a ...   Re: features vs. stability   
Nathan Tenney
Aug 13, 2001, 15:42:35
 
"The only benefit to me is to the provid ...   re: so what   
Chris Carlen
Aug 13, 2001, 15:43:17
 
Ganesh is basically a Java evangelist, a ...   Been There   
Anonymous
Aug 13, 2001, 15:45:44
 
Incredibly, many in the free software wo ...   .NET and the market   
PCR
Aug 13, 2001, 15:51:31
 
http://www.apache.org is the home page f ...   Re: Visiting Apache.org   
Al
Aug 13, 2001, 15:52:32
 
> > One of the biggest concerns that I s ...   Re: Re: features vs. stability   
Mark
Aug 13, 2001, 15:54:35
 
> How quickly IIS will lose market share ...   Re: I can't help but wonder...   
Bastion
Aug 13, 2001, 15:58:24
 
Good article Ganesh. I heard you at Bang ...   Geeks screwing Open Source   
Unscrewed
Aug 13, 2001, 16:03:28
 
Hardly!  According to Netcraft, the decl ...   Apache in decline?   
Stephen Savitzky
Aug 13, 2001, 16:05:18
 
> 
> Why did Sun invent servlets, for e ...   Re: post Java experiments   
JavaMan
Aug 13, 2001, 16:14:10
 
Perhaps _you_ and _I_ are not convinced  ...   RE: features vs. stability   
Jon
Aug 13, 2001, 16:19:56
 
I agree with the sentiment that Open Sou ...   agreed somewhat, but there are still questions   
Leo
Aug 13, 2001, 16:25:07
 
Thank you for an insightful and well wri ...   Thank you, Ganesh!   
Greg Smith
Aug 13, 2001, 16:27:03
 
IIS is what? are any of them still runni ...   Mi$sing the poiNT   
gnu_bob
Aug 13, 2001, 16:28:33
 
> (If it's all about marketing, the  ...   Re: Re: Re: features vs. stability   
Dean Pannell (a.k.a. dinotrac)
Aug 13, 2001, 16:30:41
 
Why do we have to choose between Java an ...   All Our Eggs In One Basket?   
Kevin Shaum
Aug 13, 2001, 16:34:22
 
VB, Microsoft's Visual Basic was res ...   Kylix   
jack smith
Aug 13, 2001, 16:34:27
 
I wrote: "Unfortunately, slow, interpret ...   Re: Re: post Java experiments   
AnonCow
Aug 13, 2001, 16:37:42
 
Misdirection. It's what makes preste ...   MS Visual Misdirection 2000   
David Wollmann
Aug 13, 2001, 16:37:51
 

You see, you fail to understand certai ...   Why .NET makes sense and Java not   
Karl Gutenberg
Aug 13, 2001, 16:43:34
 
> Good article Ganesh. I heard you at Ba ...   Re: Geeks screwing Open Source   
Gabriel Weisner
Aug 13, 2001, 16:48:11
 
> > (If it's all about marketing, th ...   Re: Re: Re: Re: features vs. stability   
Nicholas Donovan
Aug 13, 2001, 16:51:46
 
I think this was a well-written piece po ...   Re: Mi$sing the poiNT   
Barney Gumble
Aug 13, 2001, 16:52:11
 
Look folks how can you still talk about  ...   IBM OS/2 Java Runtime Costs $$   
David D. Huff Jr.
Aug 13, 2001, 16:53:01
 
> Hardly!  According to Netcraft, the de ...   Re: Apache in decline?   
Rick Ellis
Aug 13, 2001, 17:02:31
 
| I can accomplish the same solution wit ...   Re: Been There   
Jonathan Abbey
Aug 13, 2001, 17:04:48
 
I have been working in 2 big banks the l ...   Java is in big Companies   
Thomas Carrie
Aug 13, 2001, 17:08:12
 
> > 
> > Why did Sun invent servlets, f ...   Re: Re: post Java experiments   
Jeff Boyle
Aug 13, 2001, 17:12:34
 
Web services are a product waiting for a ...   'Web Services': Show me a market   
David Acklam
Aug 13, 2001, 17:15:53
 
This was an excellent article, Ganesh kn ...   Open Mindedness == Open Source? (Excellent Ar   
dc
Aug 13, 2001, 17:16:30
 
I agree that Open Source lacks standardi ...   Components and Web Services   
Thomas Carrie
Aug 13, 2001, 17:18:36
 
 
> You see, you fail to understand cer ...   Re: Why .NET makes sense and Java not   
Jonathan Abbey
Aug 13, 2001, 17:26:31
 
> > I'm not convinced that we *need* ...   Re: Re: features vs. stability   
Arne Adolfsen
Aug 13, 2001, 17:34:09
 
> Thank you for an insightful and well w ...   Re: Thank you, Ganesh!   
Rufus Polson
Aug 13, 2001, 17:34:42
 
Ohiohiohi.                               ...   "Pragmatism, or One thing at a time"   
R.L.
Aug 13, 2001, 17:36:11
 
In the company I was working for, we hav ...   Re: post Java experiments   
Thomas Carrie
Aug 13, 2001, 17:37:53
 
There is a feature of the Open Source co ...   We'll never compete with MS...   
Travis
Aug 13, 2001, 17:51:29
 
Exactly right, Arne!

Considering how  ...   Re: Re: Re: features vs. stability   
anonymous
Aug 13, 2001, 18:00:19
 
Java is already a mature technology. It  ...   Java's problem is not it's performance, bu   
linux_people
Aug 13, 2001, 18:04:23
 
Another point most people seem to have f ...   Broken Record   
Dot-Net open source implementation difficulties
Aug 13, 2001, 18:06:51
 
I have to say that not all programmers a ...   Java or not, .NET should not be ignored   
Jim Smith
Aug 13, 2001, 18:07:48
 
> Are you saying that Code Red might cau ...   Re: Re: Apache in decline?   
Jacek Piskozub
Aug 13, 2001, 18:12:27
 
I agree with Ganesh's premise.  Web  ...   Agree, but there is another Alternative   
tc
Aug 13, 2001, 18:13:50
 
> There is a feature of the Open Source  ...   Re: We'll never compete with MS...   
Gabriel Weisner
Aug 13, 2001, 18:15:32
 
You just proved my point.It's amusin ...   To Gabriel Weisner   
Unscrewed
Aug 13, 2001, 18:21:32
 
I can remember a year ago when everyone  ...   The sky is falling!   
Ken Riley
Aug 13, 2001, 18:29:45
 
Web Services can be useful in B2B market ...   Re: 'Web Services': Show me a market   
linux_people
Aug 13, 2001, 18:36:05
 
What Ganesh is talking about is not indi ...   You've all missed the point   
JJS
Aug 13, 2001, 18:37:04
 
I think commodity web servers are all th ...   Static pages are underated   
James
Aug 13, 2001, 18:47:09
 
RMI is a proprietary Sun/Java-only techn ...   RMI   
AnonCow
Aug 13, 2001, 18:47:17
 
> You just proved my point.It's amus ...   Re: To Unscrewed :)   
Gabriel Weisner
Aug 13, 2001, 18:54:20
 
> What Ganesh is talking about is not in ...   Re: You've all missed the point   
Gabriel Weisner
Aug 13, 2001, 18:57:22
 
> Ohiohiohi.                             ...   Re: Feldenkrais Method   
Nicholas Donovan
Aug 13, 2001, 19:03:18
 
> The only bad thing we noticed about rm ...   Re: Re: post Java experiments   
Jonathan Abbey
Aug 13, 2001, 19:04:40
 
> You just proved my point.It's amus ...   Re: To Unscrewed   
Gabriel Weisner
Aug 13, 2001, 19:11:48
 
I think webservices are bit more fundame ...   Re: The sky is falling!   
AnonCow
Aug 13, 2001, 19:19:17
 
> All I've seen you do here is spout ...   Re: Re: To Unscrewed   
Dean Pannell (a.k.a. dinotrac)
Aug 13, 2001, 19:20:05
 
From the article, I got at least three c ...   Choices   
linux_people
Aug 13, 2001, 19:28:15
 
Obviously, they want to control it all.  ...   Their dreams may not come true   
FlashFyre
Aug 13, 2001, 19:32:06
 
> RMI is a proprietary Sun/Java-only tec ...   Re: RMI   
Jonathan Abbey
Aug 13, 2001, 19:33:33
 
> Another point most people seem to have ...   Re: Broken Record   
Nicholas Donovan
Aug 13, 2001, 19:44:16
 
Now, before I get any comments that "It  ...   Appication Servers   
Kevin Stiles
Aug 13, 2001, 19:55:49
 
It's under an MPL-like license.  Tak ...   Enhydra Enterprise is J2EE-compliant and open sour   
JDH
Aug 13, 2001, 19:56:29
 
> All I'm saying is that...there are ...   Re: Their dreams may not come true   
Nicholas Donovan
Aug 13, 2001, 20:00:27
 
Unfortunately Java is a dead end, both t ...   MS will play catch up. Soon.   
Klasa
Aug 13, 2001, 20:07:26
 
I the last weeks I have been learning ab ...   Web services now? Apache + SOAP::Lite   
Víctor R. Ruiz
Aug 13, 2001, 20:12:28
 
Do you think there should be an open-sou ...   Make your vote count   
scott bell
Aug 13, 2001, 20:19:43
 
> If not possible, has it been mentioned ...   Re: Appication Servers   
David Acklam
Aug 13, 2001, 20:20:23
 
>Web Services can be useful in B2B marke ...   Re: Re: 'Web Services': Show me a market   
David Acklam
Aug 13, 2001, 20:32:03
 
Greg Smith wrote:

I am hopeful that S ...   Don't hold your breath   
Rick Moen
Aug 13, 2001, 20:39:10
 
And that will be hell on earth for most  ...   Re: You've all missed the point: NO, We get i   
David Acklam
Aug 13, 2001, 20:43:29
 
> 
> You see, you fail to understand ce ...   Re: Why .NET makes sense and Java not   
David Acklam
Aug 13, 2001, 20:50:11
 
> How quickly IIS will lose market share ...   Re: I can't help but wonder...   
Rick Ellis
Aug 13, 2001, 20:56:30
 
> > You clearly know nothing about servl ...   Re: Re: Re: post Java experiments   
JavaMan
Aug 13, 2001, 20:59:27
 
The future is : Microsoft has its own in ...   M$ will dominate ok, but.. who cares?   
Luciano Giordana
Aug 13, 2001, 21:03:18
 
OK, so it's not open-source, but the ...   WebSphere   
James E. LaBarre
Aug 13, 2001, 21:08:54
 
Look at Zope (http://www.zope.org). Sit  ...   Java, IIS and Apache are not the only game in town   
Gary Nutbeam
Aug 13, 2001, 21:16:16
 
 
 For example, has Apache even managed ...   Zope   
Mario Valente
Aug 13, 2001, 21:36:44
 
So, Apache sucks because it doesn't  ...   Very silly   
joe blow
Aug 13, 2001, 21:42:44
 
>
>No, actually, I can't. There&#39 ...   Re: Re: Re: 'Web Services': Show me a mark   
linux_people
Aug 13, 2001, 22:56:49
 
The point: it's not about Moshe Feld ...   Re: Re: Feldenkrais Method   
R.L.
Aug 13, 2001, 23:11:44
 
> I the last weeks I have been learning  ...   Re: Web services now? Apache + SOAP::Lite   
linux_people
Aug 13, 2001, 23:12:05
 
Dave,

The CLR is not quite the for C/ ...   Re: Re: Why .NET makes sense and Java not   
Dennis Mabrey
Aug 13, 2001, 23:19:10
 
> You just proved my point.It's amus ...   Re: To Anon (Unscrewed)   
Nicholas Donovan
Aug 13, 2001, 23:34:05
 
Very well put. ...   Re: Geeks screwing Open Source   
dingodonkey
Aug 14, 2001, 00:06:54
 
I totally agree. Zope is ultimately cool ...   Re: Zope   
Martin Sevior
Aug 14, 2001, 00:35:09
 
> I've learned a lot from Java, its  ...   Re: post Java experiments   
James
Aug 14, 2001, 01:22:44
 

> But either method is far more effici ...   Re: Re: Re: Re: post Java experiments   
Coolj101
Aug 14, 2001, 01:51:24
 
I also have to say it utterly pointless  ...   A plague on all of their houses   
Rick Moen
Aug 14, 2001, 02:00:12
 
> You just proved my point.It's amus ...   Re: To Gabriel Weisner   
James
Aug 14, 2001, 02:10:00
 

On a slightly different topic...
To t ...   He said it how it is, and now the command line.   
B. K.
Aug 14, 2001, 03:07:10
 
OK, I'll admit it: I'm fed up wi ...   It's the CODE stupid!   
Deirdre Saoirse Moen
Aug 14, 2001, 03:29:50
 
Sad, read the followup posts.  People wh ...   excellent article, but we're still blind   
context
Aug 14, 2001, 03:46:22
 
> How quickly IIS will lose market share ...   Re: I can't help but wonder...   
D. Long
Aug 14, 2001, 04:23:33
 
 I would point out that we had the resou ...   Re: All Our Eggs In One Basket?   
anon
Aug 14, 2001, 06:16:24
 
>I read LT for the entertaining comments ...   Re:He said it how it is, and now the command line   
Doug Dahl
Aug 14, 2001, 06:26:44
 
I think the author is right on the money ...   Its closer than we might realize   
Peter Frandsen
Aug 14, 2001, 07:21:53
 
Rick,

I would suggest that a person e ...   Re: A plague on all of their houses   
Ganesh Prasad
Aug 14, 2001, 07:36:12
 
Just one more way for clueless people to ...   Web Services ?   
Jurgen Defurne
Aug 14, 2001, 08:35:00
 
Well Deirdre Moen, I don't know if y ...   Re: It's the CODE stupid!   
Ganesh Prasad
Aug 14, 2001, 08:58:46
 
Panic mode again, is it? If people want  ...   Really?   
Jan
Aug 14, 2001, 10:02:59
 
Like it or not, recent changes in Americ ...   Microsoft is on a roll   
joe
Aug 14, 2001, 10:15:03
 
I completely agree with this. Have you s ...   he's right   
werther
Aug 14, 2001, 10:21:34
 
> I've learned a lot from Java, its  ...   Re: post Java experiments   
Uno Engborg
Aug 14, 2001, 10:42:46
 
> I wrote: "Unfortunately, slow, interpr ...   Re: Re: Re: post Java experiments   
Uno Engborg
Aug 14, 2001, 11:16:41
 
Hi, All

In the last two days, I imple ...   Strange performance of RMI   
yangyuexiang
Aug 14, 2001, 11:29:08
 

> Again, as with most trolling anecdot ...   Re: Re: To Anon (Unscrewed)   
Fred Mobach
Aug 14, 2001, 11:45:23
 
This article makes a number of big assum ...   Wrong Assumptions lead to Wrong Conclusions   
TT
Aug 14, 2001, 11:50:08
 
 Hi, I just want to express my personal  ...   J2EE not a solution   
Enrique Arizón Benito
Aug 14, 2001, 12:10:28
 
> Personally I use PHP for everything I  ...   Re: IBM OS/2 Java Runtime Costs $$   
Uno Engborg
Aug 14, 2001, 12:20:30
 
> I understand Ganesh to be addressing a ...   Re: Re: features vs. stability   
flacco
Aug 14, 2001, 12:33:41
 
There is a feature of the Open Source co ...   RE:We'll never compete with MS   
anomynous
Aug 14, 2001, 12:47:28
 
> Sun? They want to own you, too. They h ...   Re: MS Visual Misdirection 2000   
Hindenburg
Aug 14, 2001, 13:01:57
 
I think the questions here are a Virtual ...   Virtual Machine & Framework   
Toni gaya
Aug 14, 2001, 13:05:16
 
> RMI is a proprietary Sun/Java-only tec ...   Re: RMI   
Uno Engborg
Aug 14, 2001, 13:11:05
 
Well first off, I dont want a GUI for Ap ...   A few points   
Brian Bruns
Aug 14, 2001, 13:28:42
 

> 
> Do you mean "Why is it that comp ...   Re: Re: To Anon (Unscrewed)   
Jason Van Dellenbusch
Aug 14, 2001, 13:36:57
 
> 
> On a slightly different topic...
 ...   Re: He said it how it is, and now the command line   
Gerald Danhal
Aug 14, 2001, 14:00:37
 
Prasad wrote:

Web services is not jus ...   Re: A plague on all of their houses   
Rick Moen
Aug 14, 2001, 14:09:08
 
Ok .....as I give my 2 cents worth there ...   Re: He said it how it is, and now the command line   
Said Al-jabry
Aug 14, 2001, 14:20:19
 


> > 3) It sucks up a lot of RAM just ...   Re: Re: It's the CODE stupid! (to Ganesh)   
Nicholas Donovan
Aug 14, 2001, 14:46:47
 
Looking down through the sea of evasions ...   Moving right along...   
Rick Moen
Aug 14, 2001, 15:12:50
 
At least they want to create them. I wor ...   Author right on the money - world wants services   
Jeff
Aug 14, 2001, 15:19:39
 
Funny, Bill Gates & Ballmer are die-hard ...   Re: Microsoft is on a roll   
David Acklam
Aug 14, 2001, 15:23:10
 
> I totally agree. Zope is ultimately co ...   Re: Re: Zope   
Bill Nuxli
Aug 14, 2001, 15:30:19
 
Ganesh, as you may know, I don't rea ...   One more nitpick...   
Nicholas Donovan
Aug 14, 2001, 15:34:16
 
> Now, before I get any comments that "I ...   Re: Appication Servers   
Richard Moore
Aug 14, 2001, 15:35:05
 
> > I've learned a lot from Java, it ...   Re: Re: post Java experiments   
David Acklam
Aug 14, 2001, 15:48:08
 
> Looking down through the sea of evasio ...   Re: Moving right along...   
Uno Engborg
Aug 14, 2001, 15:51:01
 
This talkback is very interesting to me. ...   Wow, very interesting Re: He said it how it is, an   
Klaus Grasslaub
Aug 14, 2001, 16:00:22
 
No, many of us HAVE used java, and are q ...   Re: excellent article, but we're still blind   
David Acklam
Aug 14, 2001, 16:00:40
 
> Well Deirdre Moen, I don\'t know i ...   Re: It\'s the CODE stupid!   
Deirdre Saoirse Moen
Aug 14, 2001, 16:20:25
 
> I think webservices are bit more funda ...   Re: Re: The sky is falling!   
David Acklam
Aug 14, 2001, 16:25:25
 
Uno, please note that I didsay that JBos ...   The open-source pieces   
Rick Moen
Aug 14, 2001, 16:28:37
 
You've got to be kidding me. You don ...   Re: Re: excellent article, but we're still bli   
Jeff
Aug 14, 2001, 16:33:46
 
> 
> Also, many of us do not see any re ...   Re: Re: excellent article, but we're still bli   
Nicholas Donovan
Aug 14, 2001, 16:39:56
 
XML itself is just a metamarkup, which i ...   On XML services   
Deirdre Saoirse Moen
Aug 14, 2001, 17:05:18
 
FINALLY...someone who GETS IT!!!!  I mea ...   Re: MS Visual Misdirection 2000   
A Canuck
Aug 14, 2001, 17:58:21
 
Quite early in the vast number of commen ...   What is it for?   
Alan Johnson
Aug 14, 2001, 18:04:57
 
> Quite early in the vast number of comm ...   Re: What is it for?   
Nicholas Donovan
Aug 14, 2001, 18:41:21
 
> One of the biggest concerns that I see ...   Re: features vs. stability   
mark kent
Aug 14, 2001, 19:07:25
 
> Quite early in the vast number of comm ...   Re: What is it for?   
Dean Pannell (a.k.a. dinotrac)
Aug 14, 2001, 19:31:15
 
I agree with 100% of the article, except ...   Yep. Only one thing.   
Mike Hoskins
Aug 14, 2001, 19:39:36
 
 This talkback is very interesting to me ...   Re: Wow, very interesting Re: He said it how it is   
Myddrin
Aug 14, 2001, 19:46:54
 
> Rick,
> 
> I would suggest that a pe ...   Re: Re: A plague on all of their houses   
David Acklam
Aug 14, 2001, 20:05:47
 
From my information, the CLR *is* a Virt ...   Re: Re: Re: Why .NET makes sense and Java not: the   
David Acklam
Aug 14, 2001, 20:32:22
 
> and Document how to set up authenticat ...   Re: Re: He said it how it is, and now the command   
David Acklam
Aug 14, 2001, 20:49:09
 
> Web services indeed.  Another dodo to  ...   Re: Re: I can't help but wonder...   
Rick Ellis
Aug 14, 2001, 21:25:15
 
3.  That Java's performance and stab ...   Re: A plague on all of their houses   
John Proctor
Aug 14, 2001, 22:19:46
 
As someone with considerable Java develo ...   Ironically Parocial Java Bigotry   
Jonathan
Aug 14, 2001, 22:57:02
 
Read this: it may not change your life,  ...   Zope is **THE** Platform for WS - it's ENTERPR   
Sean Upton
Aug 15, 2001, 02:16:55
 
You put in words what we have been think ...   Good Article.   
Abhishek
Aug 15, 2001, 02:39:50
 
The article brings up valid points about ...   Some valid points, but not foregone conclustion   
peter
Aug 15, 2001, 02:43:26
 
This article talks about needing a free  ...   What about gsweb?   
Frank Budesa
Aug 15, 2001, 02:49:58
 
http://www.netcraft.com/survey/

Read  ...   Did anyone here actually read the netcraft survey&   
Kevin
Aug 15, 2001, 03:14:02
 
> > 
> > Why did Sun invent servlets, f ...   Re: Re: post Java experiments   
Sean W.
Aug 15, 2001, 03:14:19
 
One thing.. Kylix is Delphi for Linux.   ...   Re: Kylix   
Moon
Aug 15, 2001, 03:19:28
 
All these things you say about Zope are  ...   Re: Zope is **THE** Platform for WS   
Eric O\'Dell
Aug 15, 2001, 03:36:33
 
The 5% gain in Microsoft's webserver ...   Who switched?   
Nobby
Aug 15, 2001, 03:47:00
 
 In a few years from now, it will either ...   What a OS bigot.   
Anonymous
Aug 15, 2001, 04:06:04
 
I use Linux. I believe in Open Source. H ...   J2EE   
Robert Brinson
Aug 15, 2001, 04:34:48
 
Java kicks ass.  I am a big fan of Tomca ...   Learn Java Once Write Anywhere   
T-Rex
Aug 15, 2001, 04:39:07
 
> I can accomplish the same solution wit ...   Re: Been There   
Jeffery Eddings
Aug 15, 2001, 05:16:33
 
> > Well Deirdre Moen, I don\'t know ...   Re: Re: It\'s the CODE stupid!   
Joey
Aug 15, 2001, 06:10:00
 
See subject. ...   You are a great writer.   
Jim
Aug 15, 2001, 07:18:20
 
> Ease of Administration=Ease of use =Th ...   Re: Re: He said it how it is, and now the command   
Jon Sterper
Aug 15, 2001, 07:26:22
 
> You clearly know nothing about servlet ...   Re: Re: post Java experiments   
Noneofyourbusiness
Aug 15, 2001, 07:31:41
 
I often wonder where this arguement come ...   Re: Re: Zope is **THE** Platform for WS   
Kosh
Aug 15, 2001, 07:55:30
 
Regarding the lack of Zope documentation ...   Re: Re: Zope is **THE** Platform for WS   
Mark
Aug 15, 2001, 08:10:17
 
No advanced GUI interface or services? O ...   OS X Server 2   
James
Aug 15, 2001, 08:16:19
 
> You put in words what we have been thi ...   Re: Good Article.   
R. E.
Aug 15, 2001, 08:27:46
 
> Why did Sun invent servlets, for examp ...   Not really thecase...   
martijn jacobs
Aug 15, 2001, 08:31:34
 
ummm... I can't see how you can make ...   Jakarta??   
Brendan Richards
Aug 15, 2001, 08:32:11
 
I don't know what planet you are on, ...   What planet are you on?   
Illumen
Aug 15, 2001, 08:47:26
 
>>> Well Deirdre Moen, I don\'t know ...   Re: It's the CODE stupid   
Deirdre Saoirse Moen
Aug 15, 2001, 09:03:39
 
What Rubbish.  I started off coding in C ...   Re: Java or not, .NET should not be ignored   
jim smith2
Aug 15, 2001, 09:03:58
 
I agree with you on API, RMI and EJB. I  ...   Re: post Java experiments   
nony
Aug 15, 2001, 09:17:52
 
> Any One with the slightest bit of moti ...   Re: Re: He said it how it is, and now the command   
James S.
Aug 15, 2001, 09:26:07
 
Good point, but one shouldn't favor  ...   Re: features vs. stability   
Tuomas Launiainen
Aug 15, 2001, 09:31:06
 
http://www.zend.com/ ...   Zend?   
Grant K Rauscher
Aug 15, 2001, 09:48:37
 
Prasad should really think before openin ...   Get a clue...   
Ian Panosh
Aug 15, 2001, 10:05:42
 
I guess you should expect to be patronis ...   Java   
Hunza
Aug 15, 2001, 11:15:22
 
J2EE is not only about Servlets and EJBs ...   Re: post Java experiments   
Chad La Joie
Aug 15, 2001, 11:23:51
 
Goddammit! Stop arguing whether spiffle  ...   Geek Alert! Coders wake up! Real world calling...   
Jens Poder
Aug 15, 2001, 11:59:14
 
> Don't get me wrong -- Zope sounds  ...   Re: Re: Zope is **THE** Platform for WS   
Jeremy Hylton
Aug 15, 2001, 12:00:51
 
http://hotwired.lycos.com/webmonkey/01/1 ...   Excellent article... Here is another one   
Jens Poder
Aug 15, 2001, 12:01:24
 
I agree. For all the talk about the comp ...   Re: Zope   
Francis Barnhart
Aug 15, 2001, 12:49:01
 
> Where is this coming from??? The CGI s ...   Re: post Java experiments   
Mark Matthews
Aug 15, 2001, 13:02:13
 
EVERY application that we are working on ...   Re: 'Web Services': Show me a market   
Chewwy
Aug 15, 2001, 13:25:20
 
I think the way Open Source software is  ...   Open Source development will always be slower!   
Serafim Junior Fagundes
Aug 15, 2001, 13:34:54
 
Most people who criticize java are ignor ...   Most people who criticize java are ignorants   
Vegeta
Aug 15, 2001, 13:36:11
 
THAT'S what I'm sayin! OSXS all  ...   Re: OS X Server 2   
Paul Wieland
Aug 15, 2001, 14:13:14
 
I don't think that OS clustering is  ...   Re: 'Web Services': Show me a market   
pl
Aug 15, 2001, 14:15:28
 
...I know a lot of smart guys who are al ...   For what it's worth...   
Dave Taubler
Aug 15, 2001, 15:18:15
 
------
Don't get me wrong -- Zope s ...   Zope - documentation. Yeah - there it is!   
Heimo Laukkanen
Aug 15, 2001, 15:24:02
 
 I don't know what planet you are on ...   Re: What planet are you on?   
ME
Aug 15, 2001, 15:35:20
 
Visit our site to see a fine examples of ...   PHP/MySQL/Flash Programming   
Herve Fulchiron
Aug 15, 2001, 15:49:15
 
> Completely disagree.  Have worked with ...   Re: Re: Been There   
Anonymous
Aug 15, 2001, 15:57:17
 
> I think the questions here are a Virtu ...   Re: Virtual Machine & Framework   
Hen
Aug 15, 2001, 15:58:10
 
.Net is Microsoft's webservices arch ...   We did .net kinda thing before .net!   
Ravi
Aug 15, 2001, 16:13:50
 
Did you ever look at RMI-IIOP, which is  ...   Re: Re: RMI   
Stefan Bauer
Aug 15, 2001, 16:15:25
 
Vegeta, welcome to the party.  But it&#3 ...   Question-begging   
Rick Moen
Aug 15, 2001, 16:16:37
 
Why are you letting M$ lead you around b ...   Once again, M$ leads you around   
John
Aug 15, 2001, 16:39:03
 
Regarding the person who said they would ...   re:zope is the platform for WS   
m.e.
Aug 15, 2001, 16:53:06
 
Just so great a response. Especially the ...   Re: 'Web Services': Show me a market   
Monte Lin
Aug 15, 2001, 16:56:07
 
I can't be the only experienced appl ...   J2EE is Garbage   
Todd Blanchard
Aug 15, 2001, 17:39:22
 
> 
> Different hosting solutions work i ...   Re: Did anyone here actually read the netcraft sur   
Nicholas Donovan
Aug 15, 2001, 17:44:29
 
Prasad states: 
"This is all about appl ...   RE: XML over HTTP   
Anonymous
Aug 15, 2001, 17:51:16
 
Dear ME,                                 ...   Re: Re: What planet are you on?   
R.L.
Aug 15, 2001, 17:57:08
 
Why are you letting M$ lead you around b ...   Let's get real   
Rick Moen
Aug 15, 2001, 18:03:42
 
> I disagree that there is a need to &#3 ...   Re: The sky is falling!   
Rocky
Aug 15, 2001, 18:16:39
 
...that IBM's WebSphere (v4 is the f ...   He forgets or doesn't know...   
Army No Va
Aug 15, 2001, 18:55:22
 
> The reality is that people write perfe ...   Re: It's the CODE stupid!   
Jeff Sturm
Aug 15, 2001, 18:59:53
 
> I don't go berzerk and use anythin ...   Re: He said it how it is, and now the command line   
Jeff Sturm
Aug 15, 2001, 19:07:36
 
Well, EJB 2.0 is NOT build around RMI. A ...   Re: post Java experiments   
Christof
Aug 15, 2001, 19:17:02
 
We, are a Zope based company.   We provi ...   Re: Zope - documentation. Yeah - there it is!   
John Proctor
Aug 15, 2001, 19:33:21
 
Have you looked at WebWare lately, it&#3 ...   WebWare/WebKit python Appserver is working it'   
larry
Aug 15, 2001, 19:40:14
 
> I guess you should expect to be patron ...   Re: Java   
Christof
Aug 15, 2001, 20:01:36
 
I hate to admit it but i am converting m ...   Apache will be gone soon   
Howard Johnson
Aug 15, 2001, 21:05:06
 
Jeff Sturm wrote

Incidentally, Zope i ...   Re: Re: It's the CODE stupid!   
Rick Moen
Aug 15, 2001, 22:25:25
 
You'll notice that the survey was a  ...   The statistically inept.   
ron
Aug 15, 2001, 22:31:22
 
> EVERY application that we are working  ...   Re: Re: 'Web Services': Show me a market   
David Acklam
Aug 15, 2001, 23:36:55
 
Don't you realize Microsoft has a HU ...   YOU ALL FORGOT ONE THING   
c2clear
Aug 16, 2001, 00:52:14
 
I'll bet you found the biggest, most ...   Re: Re: Re: It's the CODE stupid!   
Jeff Sturm
Aug 16, 2001, 01:47:54
 
Features over stability is very true. Ho ...   Re: Re: features vs. stability   
Peter Wone
Aug 16, 2001, 01:51:00
 
Don't you realize Microsoft has a HU ...   Re: YOU ALL FORGOT ONE THING   
Jeff Sturm
Aug 16, 2001, 01:54:11
 
First of all, this reads more like an MS ...   FUD   
Richard Lynch
Aug 16, 2001, 02:11:36
 
> By the way, I don't need all these ...   Re: Re: Re: post Java experiments   
Peter Wone
Aug 16, 2001, 02:13:23
 
> And if XP does not ship with Java? Doe ...   Re: IBM OS/2 Java Runtime Costs $$   
Peter Wone
Aug 16, 2001, 02:43:21
 
> 
> You seem to have your facts a litt ...   Re: Re: Re: post Java experiments   
Mike
Aug 16, 2001, 03:29:59
 
I stumbled upon this article and I'v ...   Perspective from the Dark Side   
j.f.k.
Aug 16, 2001, 03:41:23
 
The web hasn't fundamentally changed ...   Yet Another Fad   
Jay Kominek
Aug 16, 2001, 04:52:27
 

   ...   You are on the right side.   
Miguel Morales
Aug 16, 2001, 07:54:01
 
Jeff Sturm wrote:

The problems with D ...   Re: Re: Re: Re: It's the CODE stupid!   
Rick Moen
Aug 16, 2001, 08:39:06
 
Same people, same not-invented-here synd ...   dotGNU: another GNU/HURD?   
tom yeh
Aug 16, 2001, 09:07:08
 
> As for your 'crap programmers need ...   Re: Re: Java or not, .NET should not be ignored   
Dean Pannell (a.k.a. dinotrac)
Aug 16, 2001, 11:39:54
 
Linux is using the nature approach to im ...   Re: RE:We'll never compete with MS   
denis
Aug 16, 2001, 11:42:10
 
If only Mr. Linus looks at something mor ...   For Linux Folks every thing is the OS   
Vi
Aug 16, 2001, 15:21:14
 
This is just a fast opinion, but I feel  ...   Java bad for lone gunmen   
pelam
Aug 16, 2001, 20:10:41
 
> Vegeta, welcome to the party.  But it& ...   Re: Question-begging   
Vegeta
Aug 16, 2001, 20:41:55
 
j.f.k has it right.  I'm tired of th ...   Perspective from the Dark Side   
gumpstein
Aug 16, 2001, 22:58:44
 
Vegeta wrote:

Many of the things I sa ...   Re: Re: Question-begging   
Rick Moen
Aug 17, 2001, 00:55:32
 
To the Moens:

You both now have claim ...   182MB JVM with no Java code   
Steve Salkin
Aug 17, 2001, 05:26:31
 

> Vegeta wrote:
> 
> Many of the thi ...   Re: Re: Re: Question-begging   
Vegeta
Aug 17, 2001, 13:45:00
 
This is not a "OSS against commercial so ...   Re: features vs. stability   
MH Annex
Aug 17, 2001, 13:47:46
 
> One of the biggest concerns that I see ...   Re: features vs. stability   
Marc
Aug 17, 2001, 18:02:27
 
Vegeta wrote:

> I'm sorry, you&#3 ...   Re: Re: Re: Re: Question-begging   
Rick Moen
Aug 17, 2001, 21:51:45
 
MH Annex wrote:

Bind is also an open- ...   Re: Re: features vs. stability   
Rick Moen
Aug 17, 2001, 21:54:19
 
Steve Salkin wrote:

To the Moens:

 ...   Re: 182MB JVM with no Java code   
Rick Moen
Aug 17, 2001, 21:56:03
 
The problems of reuse are not the proble ...   Re: Been There   
Alex
Aug 18, 2001, 08:08:23
 
Bravo!
We were looking for a collaborat ...   Re: Re: Zope is **THE** Platform for WS   
Stratcat
Aug 19, 2001, 12:06:02
 
> a) The GNU projects code is written 90 ...   Re: Why .NET makes sense and Java not   
Alex Martelli
Aug 20, 2001, 13:17:54
 
1) I think we need open source implement ...   We need everything to work together   
Torbjörn Gannholm
Aug 20, 2001, 15:14:20
 
> Having worked in IS for several large  ...   Re: Been There   
jes
Aug 20, 2001, 18:43:02
 
The subject of this post sums up my atti ...   The right tool for the right job   
PJ
Aug 20, 2001, 18:50:53
 
I'm not sure that there is any corpo ...   Re: RE: features vs. stability   
jes
Aug 20, 2001, 18:52:46
 
> That is what .NET gets right. Allow VB ...   Re: Why .NET makes sense and Java not   
jes
Aug 20, 2001, 19:03:04
 
Ganesh just wants to shift the developme ...   We don't have to listen to Ganesh   
Jonathan
Aug 20, 2001, 19:03:17
 
Please.......

You talk of all these s ...   IIS is as the apache you described   
THOMAS
Aug 23, 2001, 12:59:07
 
Ha! Now that takes years of experience t ...   Re: Re: 182MB JVM with no Java code   
sunforce
Aug 23, 2001, 21:06:06
 
The author underscores the Open Source M ...   WWII Metaphor Beaten to Death   
bosk
Aug 26, 2001, 10:54:12
 
After reviewing some current books on J2 ...   Must be popular topic > 47000 reads!!!   
dc
Aug 28, 2001, 13:45:45
 
That is very true.  The apach.org may no ...   Re: Visiting Apache.org   
srini
Aug 31, 2001, 13:28:55
 
Many good points were made here. But I g ...   where is tomcat mentioned?   
srini
Aug 31, 2001, 13:34:34
 
As a longtime open-sourcer and current d ...   Ganesh POV very interesting   
Jack Woehr
Sep 3, 2001, 18:26:16
 
I'm a J2EE developper for one year a ...   !!! Java Open-Source IDE: ECLIPSE.org !!!   
Bruno Paul
Sep 6, 2001, 13:57:55
 
Jonathan,

It's been hours now tha ...   Re: Ironically Parocial Java Bigotry   
Frederic
Sep 9, 2001, 23:51:29
 
(EDI??? That is sooooooooo second millen ...   Re: 'Web Services': Show me a market   
KeyserSoze
Sep 10, 2001, 14:28:44
 
Hi there,

what would you guys say, if ...   Java Web Framework   
dominik
Sep 13, 2001, 14:14:27
 
The last time I looked at the IBM versio ...   IBM Has/Had a GUI for Apache Admin.   
Steve Barrett
Sep 13, 2001, 20:10:28
 
To let microsoft win over Opensource due ...   it is more sad ...   
tamujin
Sep 20, 2001, 17:33:48
 
is that market leaders such as IBM, Appl ...   What I find interesting....   
Peter Crowder
Sep 21, 2001, 01:29:37
 
Somewhere in the article, the author mak ...   Open Standards / Open Source.   
ElectronPusher
Sep 21, 2001, 14:19:35
 
So many discussions, so many opinions. B ...   About JBoss   
Mr.Stupid
Sep 24, 2001, 07:09:56
 
Umm ... uhh .... why?

Have you heard  ...   You need a GUI for your server?   
me
Oct 28, 2001, 01:28:38
 
Have you heard of "modules"? You should  ...   No new features for Apache   
me
Oct 28, 2001, 01:31:02
 
C# is a stupid clon (or clown?) of Java. ...   THE AWFUL TRUTH   
Karl
Oct 29, 2001, 21:51:37
 
JBoss is great and everything, but EJB s ...   err Tomcat?? TOMCAT???   
Dmitri
Oct 31, 2001, 01:02:15
 
> If any software package can not be con ...   Re: He said it how it is, and now the command line   
Matthew Graybosch
Nov 24, 2001, 03:46:01
 
I am reading this article and the writer ...   Did the writer of this article study anything firs   
TG
Nov 26, 2001, 19:44:26
 
Most of you seem oblivious to the niche  ...   MS as a competitor   
Dante
Dec 24, 2001, 15:58:13
 
OpenACS 4 ( http://www.openacs.org ) is  ...   Open Source E-Commerce   
David Walker
Jan 7, 2002, 02:14:41
 
IIS dosnt have flaws in its 'securit ...   Re: I can't help but wonder...   
black-hand
Jan 14, 2002, 16:21:58
 
This was allready up a couple months bac ...   RE POST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!   
David Acklam
Mar 28, 2002, 04:31:30
 
Sure, there are GUI configuration tools  ...   Re: Did the writer of this article study anything   
Scott Goodwin
May 7, 2002, 14:39:59
 
>>> You clearly know nothing about servl ...   Re: Re: post Java experiments   
Visitor
Mar 11, 2004, 10:46:46
 
Well written article though reading the  ...   Mealy-mouthing   
Jim
May 19, 2006, 20:10:06
 
I thought the OSS was going to close the ...   Java, from a C#er .NET point of view   
jim
May 22, 2006, 15:11:53
 
I am amazed at the attitude that C/C++ f ...   C++/Straining at a Gnat   
Jim
May 25, 2006, 17:22:44
 
IIS is more popular to businesses becaus ...   IIS is a better product   
Jim
May 25, 2006, 23:18:45
 
COOOOOOL!!!!!!!! Let's be friends!!! ...   thanks   
Helga
Sep 9, 2006, 22:20:02
 
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