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:Eric Raymond: Freedom, Power, or Confusion? [ESR on debate between O'Reilly and FSF]
Eric Raymond: Freedom, Power, or Confusion? [ESR on debate between O'Reilly and FSF]
Aug 17, 2001, 17 :38 UTC (183 Talkback[s]) (60677 reads)

(Other stories by Eric S. Raymond)

In a reply [1] to Tim O'Reilly [2], Bradley Kuhn and Richard Stallman illustrate once again why the FSF's use of the word `freedom' is...well, I'll say "confusing", though stronger terms suggest themselves.

They begin by writing "Power is being able to make decisions that affect others more than you. If we confuse power with freedom, we will fail to uphold real freedom." Thus far I agree with them.

Tim asserts that the most fundamental software freedom is the freedom to choose any license you want for the software you write. Kuhn and Stallman reply "Unstated, but clearly implied, is that one person or corporation chooses the rules to impose on everyone else."

There is a curious logical reversal here. In the world of Tim's Freedom Zero, nobody gets to choose the rules under which developers will release software -- they make their own choices. Yet Kuhn and Stallman say they don't like this world. It appears that they would prefer a world in which people who write software cannot choose the proprietary licenses that Kuhn and Stallman dislike.

In other words, Stallman and Kuhn want to be able to make decisions that affect other developers more than themselves. By the definition they themselves have proposed, they want power.

Perplexing, isn't it? Tim and the FSFers both claim to stand for `freedom'. Both assert that each others' definition of "freedom" is actually a covert form of control, a claim of power over others. The only difference is in who the victims of "Powerplay Zero" are, users or developers.

Some words (like "freedom") make this kind of semantic ping-pong game way too easy. They obfuscate more than they enlighten, they cloud the issues rather than clearing the air. This is a major reason I have spent the last three years trying to get open-source developers to stop talking about "freedom". The way we use the word doesn't merely confuse others, it confuses ourselves.

Witness Tim on one side, and Kuhn & Stallman on the other, bashing each other with perfect rhetorical symmetry. Is there any way we can break the deadlock here? Any way to analyze Tim's premise vs. the FSF's premise without getting caught up in the unhelpful emotive fog surrounding words like "freedom" and "power"?

I think there is. I'm going to invent a nonsense word now: "flerbage". And I'm going to define it. I have the condition of flerbage when I can behave in the confidence that nobody will take my life, my physical property, or my time without my consent. (Observe that I am not prejudicing the discussion by assuming that the software I write is my property.)

I am pro-flerbage. There. I've made my moral commitment. I like it when people aren't killed to serve the ends of others, or robbed of their goods to serve the ends of others, or made to surrender their time (the irreplaceable time of their lives) to the ends of others. It's good when these things don't happen. It's evil when they do.

How do the respective prmises of Tim and the FSF meet the flerbage test?

First, say I'm a user. Gill Bates of Sicromoft releases yet another bloated, buggy operating system under a proprietary license. Kuhn and Stallman would have it that he is "imposing rules on everybody else". But is my flerbage affected? Not obviously. I don't have to use Bates's bloatware. I've got Nulix, a wonderful operating system developed by people who like to write code that has a friendly aardvark for a mascot. The odds that anyone is going to come to my home and kill, me, or rob me, or force me to labor for their ends rather than my owm, are not increased by Sicromoft's license.

There are certainly things Sicromoft could conceivably do that would decrease my flerbage. For example, they could get a law passed that would make it illegal to issue software under open-source licenses. Then I might face a choice between spending my time coping with Sicromoft's bugs for Sicromoft's benefit or having police come to my house to drag me off to jail, or kill me if I resist arrest.

But someone's mere act of issuing software under a proprietary license doesn't change my flerbage. Tim's premise seems benign enough to me as a user.

Now let's suppose I'm a software developer. I write open-source software to have fun and make money. I write proprietary software to have fun and make money. Part of my flerbage is that I can offer people a license that says "I trade you my software on the condition that you (a) pay me some money, and (b) don't give a copy to anyone else." If they accept, fine. If they don't, also fine; I wander off to find another customer, and they wander off to find another developer. Again, Tim's premise seems pretty benign.

Stichard Rallman releases a piece of software under an open-source license that is superior to one of my proprietary products. Has he decreased my flerbage? No. The time I spent coding my product has decreased in tradeable value, but he hasn't forced me to labor for anyone else's benefit. Nor has he measurably increased the odds that I will be killed or robbed. Tim's premise is good for both of us.

But now let's suppose that, after years of lobbying, messrs Kuhn and Stallman get a law passed that makes proprietary licenses illegal. We are now in the world of the FSF's premise.

As a user, my flerbage doesn't change. I never wanted to issue software under a proprietary license to begin with, so the new license doesn't touch me.

But as a developer, things are very different now. If I walk up to someone and offer them the same proprietary license that I did before the law was passed, police may come to my house to drag me off to jail, or kill me if I resist arrest. My flerbage has seriously decreased.

The situation is not symmetrical after all. We have broken the deadlock, and suddenly the FSF's premise doesn't seem so benign any more. See how much clearer things are when you avoid using slippery ping-pong-ball words and focus on actual behavior, and especially on the question of who gets to use force and when they get to use it?

I'm not going to make any claims about "freedom" here. I'm just talking about flerbage. But if you the reader agree with me that more flerbage is a good thing and less flerbage is a bad thing, then there are some questions we may want to ask Bradley Kuhn and Richard Stallman.

Here's the first and most important one: if you two could get a law passed making proprietary licenses illegal, would you do it?

If their answer is "no", then the dispute with Tim is over. Because that will mean they do recognize a right for developers to choose licenses as they will without being killed, jailed, or threatened for choosing the "wrong" one.

If their answer is "yes", then there are many, many other moral questions we could ask them -- and should, if only so that we can get some idea if they're too dangerous to have as neighbors.

I shall await their answer with great interest.

[1] http://linux.oreillynet.com/pub/a/linux/2001/08/15/free_software.html

[2] http://www.oreillynet.com/cs/weblog/view/wlg/526

-- 
                Eric S. Raymond

.. a government and its agents are under no general duty to 
provide public services, such as police protection, to any 
particular individual citizen...
        -- Warren v. District of Columbia, 444 A.2d 1 (D.C. App.181)

Related Stories:
"Freedom Zero" and "Freedom or Power": Tim O'Reilly and FSF Leaders Debate(Aug 17, 2001)


Index Mode   |   Flat Mode   |   Thread Mode   |   Thread Flat  
  Talkback(s) Name  and Date
Having just read Bradley Kuhn's inte ...   Excellent, as per always   
Jonathan Abbey
Aug 17, 2001, 17:57:43
 
Again we see the ability of Eric Raymond ...   Excellent   
Greg
Aug 17, 2001, 18:05:59
 
The ultimate goal is NOT to make proprie ...   He missed the point   
Srin Tuar
Aug 17, 2001, 18:14:11
 
I have elsewhere commented on RMS's  ...   A rose by any other name.   
Dean Pannell (a.k.a. dinotrac)
Aug 17, 2001, 18:18:10
 
Consider the evidence.  It takes more of ...   Stallman anti-flerbage   
AJWM
Aug 17, 2001, 18:24:44
 
me likes. i've been following this p ...   finally some good insight.   
anoop
Aug 17, 2001, 18:26:45
 
Eric says :
"In other words, Stallman a ...   Affecting Developers.   
Gordon Fischer
Aug 17, 2001, 18:38:37
 
The ultimate goal is NOT to make proprie ...   Re: He missed the point   
AJWM
Aug 17, 2001, 18:39:27
 
> so hows your flerbage now?

I don&#3 ...   Re: He missed the point   
Dean Pannell (a.k.a. dinotrac)
Aug 17, 2001, 18:42:37
 
As a new user to Linux, (going on a year ...   Finally, someone gets it right.   
Bruce Morin
Aug 17, 2001, 18:43:29
 
> The ultimate goal is NOT to make propr ...   Re: He missed the point   
Ryan T. Sammartino
Aug 17, 2001, 18:44:21
 
You didn't answer the question.  If  ...   Re: He missed the point   
Mark
Aug 17, 2001, 18:49:56
 
Very well done.

I very much enjoyed y ...   A welcome view   
CD Baric
Aug 17, 2001, 18:50:46
 
> The ultimate goal is NOT to make propr ...   Re: He missed the point   
flacco
Aug 17, 2001, 18:51:09
 
I like Eric's piece too.  I agree th ...   Hold on   
Joe Black
Aug 17, 2001, 18:52:40
 
> so hows your flerbage now?

Almost f ...   Re: He missed the point--Almost forgot   
Dean Pannell (a.k.a. dinotrac)
Aug 17, 2001, 18:53:39
 
ESR writes:

Here's the first and  ...   ESR's new law   
Bryon Gill
Aug 17, 2001, 18:55:21
 
I agree with Eric, (and Ayn Rand :-)), o ...   Agreed, but ...   
Bill Rugolsky
Aug 17, 2001, 18:57:02
 
flerbage: confidence that your life, phy ...   Flerbagism?   
Steve M.
Aug 17, 2001, 19:13:48
 
Hi Eric,

Nice story, yours. Congratul ...   There is another point I'd like to stress.   
Rildo Pragana
Aug 17, 2001, 19:16:14
 
The ultimate goal is NOT to make proprie ...   Re: He missed the point   
Jason Lee
Aug 17, 2001, 19:17:27
 
so the goal is to abolish copyright huh? ...   Re: He missed the point   
Sean
Aug 17, 2001, 19:33:25
 
In Kuhn and Stallman's "reply" to O& ...   What are Kuhn and Stallman smoking?   
Charles Johnston
Aug 17, 2001, 19:44:25
 
Great thanks for yours interesting paper ...   Does flerbage need guns ?   
cornofulgur
Aug 17, 2001, 19:45:54
 
Hate to pick nits in an otherwise good p ...   Re: Does flerbage need guns ?   
Dean Pannell (a.k.a. dinotrac)
Aug 17, 2001, 19:58:53
 
> The ultimate goal is NOT to make propr ...   Re: Re: He missed the point   
Srin Tuar
Aug 17, 2001, 19:59:04
 
If you want to use the BSD license, just ...   BSD   
Charles Hixson
Aug 17, 2001, 19:59:47
 
This is not what the whole discussion wa ...   He got it wrong...   
Alex Vilensky
Aug 17, 2001, 20:00:22
 
One problem is that this analysis of "fl ...   Wrong...   
Adam
Aug 17, 2001, 20:02:02
 
The BSD license allows Sicromoft to take ...   Re: Hold on   
David Johnson
Aug 17, 2001, 20:06:32
 
> The ultimate goal is NOT to make propr ...   Re: He missed the point   
Dnes
Aug 17, 2001, 20:12:54
 
ESR, as usual, is wearing blinders.

F ...   i want to protect the flerbage of my software, and   
Leo
Aug 17, 2001, 20:20:44
 
I have the condition of flerbage when I  ...   Flerbage, schmurbage   
Bryan Taylor
Aug 17, 2001, 20:29:11
 
> In this case that portion of the contr ...   Re: Re: Re: He missed the point   
Dean Pannell (a.k.a. dinotrac)
Aug 17, 2001, 20:29:44
 
> 
> It seems to come down to the polit ...   Re: Affecting Developers.   
Travis oliphant
Aug 17, 2001, 20:30:40
 
You're right : Not yet GPL.
But now ...   Re: Re: Does flerbage need guns ?   
cornofulgur
Aug 17, 2001, 20:43:53
 
> > The BSD license allows Sicromoft to  ...   missing the context -- Re: Re: Hold on   
Al Banker
Aug 17, 2001, 21:00:27
 
Bad analysis.

Eric's point (altho ...   Re: He missed the point   
Charlie Wilkins
Aug 17, 2001, 21:01:45
 
Quoting Bill Rugolsky from an earlier ta ...   flerbage is taken away by proprietary software, pl   
Leo
Aug 17, 2001, 21:03:20
 
 You're right : Not yet GPL.
 But n ...   Re: Re: Re: Does flerbage need guns ?   
Howard B. Golden
Aug 17, 2001, 21:11:00
 
> > In this case that portion of the con ...   copyright et contract law   
Srin Tuar
Aug 17, 2001, 21:20:42
 
Ok.  I think that ESR is a very good wri ...   Devil's advocate   
Mark
Aug 17, 2001, 21:24:38
 
> Now Foo-Apache is GPL. Fairly easy, no ...   Re: Re: Re: Does flerbage need guns ?   
Dean Pannell (a.k.a. dinotrac)
Aug 17, 2001, 21:47:55
 
>AT&T claimed that it was illegal becaus ...   Re: missing the context -- Re: Re: Hold on   
Dean Pannell (a.k.a. dinotrac)
Aug 17, 2001, 21:51:10
 
With Bradley Kuhn writing from his new p ...   The FSF just got weaker...   
JimL
Aug 17, 2001, 21:52:24
 
> This is an *excellent* point!!  It des ...   Re: flerbage is taken away by proprietary software   
Dean Pannell (a.k.a. dinotrac)
Aug 17, 2001, 21:55:59
 
> Hi Eric,
> 
> Nice story, yours. Con ...   Re: There is another point I'd like to stress.   
Fred
Aug 17, 2001, 21:56:31
 
> The *reason* I would advocate abolitio ...   Re: copyright et contract law   
Dean Pannell (a.k.a. dinotrac)
Aug 17, 2001, 21:57:35
 
> But by enabling that sort of thing, yo ...   Re: Devil's advocate   
Dean Pannell (a.k.a. dinotrac)
Aug 17, 2001, 22:01:47
 
Ok a patent has been extended to 20 year ...   Patent Law   
Charles Esson
Aug 17, 2001, 22:25:56
 
Time to rehash an old argument.

ESR,  ...   ESR, wants to use other people's software in h   
Leo
Aug 17, 2001, 23:10:02
 
> ESR, feel free to give away your code  ...   Re: ESR, wants to use other people's software   
feldspar
Aug 17, 2001, 23:36:56
 
> ESR, as usual, is wearing blinders.
> ...   Re: i want to protect the flerbage of my software,   
feldspar
Aug 17, 2001, 23:41:32
 
> > This is an *excellent* point!!  It d ...   Re: Re: flerbage is taken away by proprietary soft   
Leo
Aug 17, 2001, 23:50:09
 
> > ESR, feel free to give away your cod ...   Re: Re: ESR, wants to use other people's softw   
Leo
Aug 18, 2001, 00:04:50
 
Its unfortunate that Eric has a slightly ...   Eric's off again...   
Alan Cox
Aug 18, 2001, 00:08:03
 
> Flerbage, as defined, is NOT a good th ...   Re: Flerbage, schmurbage   
feldspar
Aug 18, 2001, 00:08:22
 
> The important stuff is in "...changing ...   Re: There is another point I'd like to stress.   
Hugo Gayosso
Aug 18, 2001, 00:49:01
 
> Yes, I know (at least I think I do) wh ...   Re: Re: There is another point I'd like to str   
Hugo Gayosso
Aug 18, 2001, 00:50:44
 
> Tell me, does it say anywhere on the b ...   Re: Re: Re: flerbage is taken away by proprietary   
Dean Pannell (a.k.a. dinotrac)
Aug 18, 2001, 01:08:53
 
> > If citizens really need it, Apache w ...   Re: Re: Re: Re: Does flerbage need guns ?   
cornofulgur
Aug 18, 2001, 01:12:54
 
Boolean views seem to abound.

>Second ...   Re: Eric's off again...   
Dean Pannell (a.k.a. dinotrac)
Aug 18, 2001, 01:21:48
 
feldspar wrote:
> flerbage in and of it ...   Re: Flerbage, schmurbage   
Bryan Taylor
Aug 18, 2001, 02:32:56
 
Fire, Water, Air, Earth, Software

Any ...   Yet another random, faintly audible, opinion you&#   
Victor Tramp
Aug 18, 2001, 02:41:44
 
> You're right, of course.  The prob ...   Re: Re: Devil's advocate   
Mark
Aug 18, 2001, 03:41:08
 
Vernage: The freedom to develop software ...   Re: Vernage   
AJWM
Aug 18, 2001, 04:26:19
 
> > Tell me, does it say anywhere on the ...   Re: Re: Re: Re: flerbage is taken away by propriet   
Leo
Aug 18, 2001, 05:47:34
 
Patents are the things that take away yo ...   Patents are the real issue   
John
Aug 18, 2001, 06:07:13
 
> Or, if you were just sloppy in your de ...   Re: Re: Vernage   
Leo
Aug 18, 2001, 06:15:39
 
It's frustrating to see so many peop ...   Pile of crap   
Mr. eRIC I-love-writing fLAMOND
Aug 18, 2001, 06:35:37
 
Not at all. Abolishing copyright will no ...   Re: Re: He missed the point   
David Johnson
Aug 18, 2001, 06:57:51
 
I think that RMS is against the type of  ...   Re: He got it wrong...   
David Johnson
Aug 18, 2001, 07:02:13
 
Speaking of mindless robots, I once rece ...   Re: The FSF just got weaker...   
David Johnson
Aug 18, 2001, 07:12:33
 
You have no right to stand where ever yo ...   Cox is off again.   
Sohi Hiro
Aug 18, 2001, 07:56:04
 
> As to filing taxes in Word, etc. I see ...   Re: Re: flerbage is taken away by proprietary soft   
Martin Vermeer
Aug 18, 2001, 08:17:40
 
> Let's back up: Copyright is an ent ...   Re: Flerbage, schmurbage (great!)   
Martin Vermeer
Aug 18, 2001, 13:37:56
 
I can't believe this garbage. Eric i ...   This is getting rediculous   
Mike
Aug 18, 2001, 14:32:25
 
This debate is delightful and helpful, b ...   Stallman != Gates   
proclus
Aug 18, 2001, 15:38:13
 
> to you, unlike the viral and communist ...   Re: Cox is off again.   
feldspar
Aug 18, 2001, 17:18:35
 
> MicroSoft as long as the software is o ...   Re: This is getting rediculous   
feldspar
Aug 18, 2001, 17:20:03
 
... So, shooting people who walk on your ...   re: Cox is off again   
Louis Aragon
Aug 18, 2001, 17:42:23
 
The principle advantage that Free or Ope ...   Hardware   
Ed Craig
Aug 18, 2001, 17:50:37
 
> You are correct, but only for laws tha ...   Re: Re: Flerbage, schmurbage   
feldspar
Aug 18, 2001, 17:52:26
 
Well written article here by Eric, and I ...   Where freedom is really taken away   
Lars Janssen
Aug 18, 2001, 18:08:32
 
> I don't feel like retyping the who ...   Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: flerbage is taken away by prop   
Dean Pannell (a.k.a. dinotrac)
Aug 18, 2001, 19:15:41
 
> The difference is that seat belt and a ...   Re: Re: Re: flerbage is taken away by proprietary   
Dean Pannell (a.k.a. dinotrac)
Aug 18, 2001, 19:20:30
 
Why is it that so many in the technical  ...   An explanation of ESR's views.   
bob
Aug 19, 2001, 01:44:39
 
> 
> > The same with TeX or Mozilla, bu ...   Re: Re: Re: Re: flerbage is taken away by propriet   
Martin Vermeer
Aug 19, 2001, 07:46:51
 
> you should find loss of flerbage due t ...   Re: Re: Re: Re: flerbage is taken away by propriet   
Dean Pannell (a.k.a. dinotrac)
Aug 19, 2001, 12:54:56
 
> The ultimate goal is NOT to make propr ...   Re: He missed the point   
jlm
Aug 19, 2001, 17:35:20
 
... he forgot a case to consider.

in  ...   the illogic of ESR's argument.   
Jack Kerouac
Aug 19, 2001, 17:44:16
 
I can see the case of

No laws :  user ...   He skipped a condition!!   
Marc Hawke
Aug 19, 2001, 17:44:19
 
While I respect ESR, in this case he cou ...   ESR misses the point   
Tom Swiss
Aug 19, 2001, 17:51:52
 
> Again we see the ability of Eric Raymo ...   Use your brain will you?   
botik32
Aug 19, 2001, 17:56:13
 
What you and O'Reilly demand is to u ...   Choice of licenses.   
Russell Nelson, VP of OSI
Aug 19, 2001, 18:03:08
 
Why are so many smart people Libertarian ...   Re: An explanation of ESR's views.   
Russ Nelson
Aug 19, 2001, 18:15:24
 
"ESR has libertarian views whereas Stall ...   Re: Affecting Developers.   
Michael Cox
Aug 19, 2001, 18:19:38
 
> The ultimate goal is NOT to make propr ...   Re: He missed the point   
Kent Perrier
Aug 19, 2001, 18:29:55
 
just because the government says that co ...   Re: Flerbage, schmurbage   
sparkane
Aug 19, 2001, 18:31:30
 
But saying just "Linux" is simply an err ...   Error   
Petter Sundlöf
Aug 19, 2001, 18:58:26
 
The problems is that there are too many  ...   Everyone has missed the point   
Trey
Aug 19, 2001, 19:08:10
 
> The ultimate goal is NOT to make propr ...   Re: He missed the point   
Buck
Aug 19, 2001, 19:45:19
 
> In this case that portion of the contr ...   Re: Re: Re: He missed the point   
Buck
Aug 19, 2001, 19:47:52
 
> And thus we have come to the crux of t ...   Re: copyright et contract law   
Buck
Aug 19, 2001, 19:50:53
 
Hi all,

Just a small clarification. I ...   Do I miss some thing?   
Rajkumar S.
Aug 19, 2001, 19:51:14
 
If copyright were toothless, what would  ...   If software were "Free"   
X
Aug 19, 2001, 20:02:38
 
> This debate is delightful and helpful, ...   Re: Stallman != Gates   
Buck
Aug 19, 2001, 20:02:43
 
Copyright shouldnt be abolished, There j ...   re: he missed the point copyright   
computx
Aug 19, 2001, 20:32:34
 
For one thing, I don't think Stallma ...   Re: He missed the point   
Noah Yetter
Aug 19, 2001, 20:39:53
 
 so the goal is to abolish copyright huh ...   Re: Re: He missed the point   
David Masterson
Aug 19, 2001, 20:41:08
 
 So, nobody has a right to make a living ...   Re: Re: Stallman != Gates   
Rajkumar S.
Aug 19, 2001, 21:06:21
 
> > The *reason* I would advocate abolit ...   Re: Re: copyright et contract law   
David Masterson
Aug 19, 2001, 21:24:05
 
ESR, feel free to give away your code un ...   What is GPL?   
David Masterson
Aug 19, 2001, 21:37:16
 
One of the anarchist motto is "if anyone ...   Another conception of freedom   
Wolfgang Sourdeau
Aug 19, 2001, 22:06:54
 
The new editor of the Pennsylvania Gazet ...   Maybe NOT: Re: Re: He missed the point--Almost for   
ME
Aug 19, 2001, 22:12:13
 
Some people do "free" software that give ...   What's the big deal?   
Aaron Newell
Aug 19, 2001, 22:17:15
 
 Hi Eric,
 
 Nice story, yours. Congra ...   Re: There is another point I'd like to stress.   
ME
Aug 19, 2001, 22:17:35
 
I have a right to my own life and to def ...   Re: Cox is off again.   
David Masterson
Aug 19, 2001, 22:19:29
 
The purpose of government is the betterm ...   Stallman is right!   
Znex
Aug 19, 2001, 22:22:47
 


Eric's logic is faulty logic.  
 ...   ESR has faulty logic   
Kyle Lahnakoski
Aug 19, 2001, 22:38:37
 
Copyright is a conditional and limited m ...   Monopolies, legal and illegal   
Colin McCormack
Aug 19, 2001, 23:12:39
 
and discovered the best discussion of so ...   Just dropped in to see what condition LT was in ..   
Jerry Kreps
Aug 20, 2001, 00:15:53
 
Three specific cases:

(1) Microsoft W ...   Flerbage *is* hurt by proprietary software   
Rob Knop
Aug 20, 2001, 00:20:46
 
I have the condition of flerbage when I  ...   flerbage defn mistake   
iplayfast
Aug 20, 2001, 00:43:59
 
if we modify ESR's question so that  ...   s/illegal/unenforcable - it changes the entire mea   
sayke
Aug 20, 2001, 01:07:29
 
Does Eric really think that publishers s ...   Re: Eric's off again...   
Sara Chan
Aug 20, 2001, 01:24:45
 
Your logic is more full of holes than a  ...   If you must break the world, use a shaper knife   
Tobias Cohen
Aug 20, 2001, 01:27:09
 
ESR holds an essentially optimistic view ...   ESR optimist, RMS pessimist   
Andrew Bettison
Aug 20, 2001, 01:52:19
 
His reasoning is wrong, and this is why: ...   Contracts don't work that way.   
simeon
Aug 20, 2001, 02:34:55
 
Who cares if Microsoft could "embrace an ...   Re: Re: He missed the point   
Gili
Aug 20, 2001, 02:51:33
 
This works only in the utopian world of
 ...   Re: Contracts don't work that way.   
John
Aug 20, 2001, 03:01:48
 
>> Does Eric really think that publisher ...   Re: Re: Eric's off again...   
David Masterson
Aug 20, 2001, 03:38:23
 
> You have no right to stand where ever  ...   Re: Cox is off again.   
Joachim Achtzehnter
Aug 20, 2001, 04:57:56
 
Eric has missed (or sidestepped) a few i ...   Jihad: I think they're *all* wrong! (-: Freedo   
Leon Brooks
Aug 20, 2001, 05:51:03
 
> If I actually tried to collect, the po ...   Re: Contracts don't work that way.   
Dean Pannell (a.k.a. dinotrac)
Aug 20, 2001, 05:51:38
 
> I see that DinoTrac is still preaching ...   Re: Just dropped in to see what condition LT was i   
Dean Pannell (a.k.a. dinotrac)
Aug 20, 2001, 06:03:49
 
"
The important stuff is in "...changin ...   Re: There is another point I'd like to stress.   
Fatty
Aug 20, 2001, 06:07:13
 
"
I think there's another option th ...   Re: ESR's new law   
Fatty
Aug 20, 2001, 06:18:38
 
> > you should find loss of flerbage due ...   Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: flerbage is taken away by prop   
Martin Vermeer
Aug 20, 2001, 06:33:11
 
Hrm, again.

"Firstly society has to m ...   Re: Eric's off again...   
Fatty of the Boom Batty tribe
Aug 20, 2001, 06:53:57
 
"Flerbage, as defined, is NOT a good thi ...   Re: Flerbage, schmurbage   
Fatty
Aug 20, 2001, 08:19:19
 
""
What concerns me about proprietary s ...   Um.   
Fatty
Aug 20, 2001, 08:41:39
 
The FSF model essentially gives the &#39 ...   Re: He missed the point   
Matthew Adams
Aug 20, 2001, 09:12:13
 
as i see it there are two armies that ar ...   Time to Retire   
greek
Aug 20, 2001, 10:11:06
 
If copyright is becoming unviable as a r ...   Nothing wrong with a non-copy clause in a contract   
Crosbie Fitch
Aug 20, 2001, 10:16:26
 
ESR asks:
>Here's the first and mos ...   ESR fundamentally misses the point   
Anonymous Coward
Aug 20, 2001, 10:20:21
 
I believe that ESR has *completely* miss ...   point missed: IP and software patents   
Horst Herb
Aug 20, 2001, 10:38:28
 
Do I see it right that ESR would have fo ...   Flerbage is bad   
Holger
Aug 20, 2001, 12:57:34
 
The Third Reich made the Nazi Party the  ...   Re: Jihad: I think they're *all* wrong! (-: Fr   
Rodney Quaye
Aug 20, 2001, 13:08:31
 
Mr. Cox,
With all due respect, you have ...   Re: Eric's off again...   
Charles Bronson
Aug 20, 2001, 13:24:19
 
> > I see that DinoTrac is still preachi ...   Re: Re: Just dropped in to see what condition LT w   
Jerry Kreps
Aug 20, 2001, 14:50:31
 
The core issue here is that "freedom" (l ...   It's not binary Eric (or Alan)   
Dennis Grant
Aug 20, 2001, 15:01:38
 
Threre is a much faster path. Leave GPL  ...   Re: There is another point I'd like to stress.   
Monte Lin
Aug 20, 2001, 15:04:13
 
1. FSF and GPL never force you to stick  ...   We got more and more greedy people entering   
Monte Lin
Aug 20, 2001, 16:09:48
 
> Flerbage does not protect you from the ...   Re: Re: flerbage is taken away by proprietary soft   
Monte Lin
Aug 20, 2001, 16:32:52
 
> You're right, of course.  The prob ...   Re: Re: Devil's advocate   
Monte Lin
Aug 20, 2001, 16:42:43
 
An idea is like a breath of air.  You ca ...   Re: Re: He missed the point   
Gene Wadleigh
Aug 20, 2001, 16:45:22
 
While your flerbage article makes nice r ...   Caveat non-emptor   
Bill Eldridge
Aug 20, 2001, 16:47:37
 
> 
> As I read his piece, he objects to ...   Re: Re: Eric's off again...   
Monte Lin
Aug 20, 2001, 17:21:24
 
Bruce Morin wrote:

Look at Stallman&# ...   Re: Finally, someone gets it right.   
Rick Moen
Aug 20, 2001, 17:48:57
 
cornofulgur wrote:

[Apache:]

You&# ...   Re: Re: Re: Does flerbage need guns ?   
Rick Moen
Aug 20, 2001, 17:58:13
 
"Fred" wrote:

[A Stallman essay has l ...   Re: Re: There is another point I'd like to str   
Rick Moen
Aug 20, 2001, 18:09:54
 
Eric's suggestion that the FSF advoc ...   Eric's straw man   
raindog
Aug 20, 2001, 19:05:12
 
If Microsoft, Sun, Adobe, etc were invol ...   Freedom to impose unconscionable terms and conditi   
Paul
Aug 20, 2001, 19:46:57
 
Stallman's whole shebang is usually  ...   Stallman summed up.   
Supernaut
Aug 20, 2001, 20:08:28
 

> Furthermore, sans copyright, Microso ...   Re: Re: He missed the point   
Brad
Aug 20, 2001, 21:39:13
 
I agree whole-heartedly with Tim.  And I ...   Definitions and Semantics   
Shane O'Donnell
Aug 21, 2001, 13:15:09
 
> to complicate matters further, ESR rea ...   Re: the illogic of ESR's argument.   
MonopolyBuster
Aug 21, 2001, 15:02:45
 
> Copyright was created to prevent a pri ...   Re: If software were   
MonopolyBuster
Aug 21, 2001, 16:45:46
 
> Does Eric really think that publishers ...   Re: Re: Eric's off again...   
MonopolyBuster
Aug 21, 2001, 18:24:04
 
ER: >> But as a developer, things are ve ...   If proprietary licenses were illegal ...   
Darryl Plank
Aug 21, 2001, 20:57:04
 
I disagree with one statement made by Go ...   Re: Affecting Developers.   
zaphod beeblebrox
Aug 22, 2001, 14:10:30
 
ESR's argument is persuasive and I f ...   Name of the Beast   
David Demko
Aug 22, 2001, 19:21:47
 
Actually, he didn't miss the point.  ...   Re: He missed the point   
Bubba
Aug 23, 2001, 02:03:39
 
> 
> It seems to come down to the polit ...   Re: Affecting Developers.   
bubba
Aug 23, 2001, 02:16:27
 
>> What in the hell was Richard Stallman ...   Re: Affecting Developers.   
Sastry Isukapalli
Aug 24, 2001, 14:17:59
 
I like your definition of Flerbage. It m ...   Flerbage == Liberty   
Bruce Kingsland
Aug 28, 2001, 03:42:24
 
>RMS and his posse are no different than ...   Re: Finally, someone gets it right.   
Paul
Dec 20, 2001, 02:50:22
 
If you want to create a modified version ...   Re: Re: There is another point I'd like to str   
david rohde
Jan 14, 2002, 08:46:18
 
> > The ultimate goal is NOT to make pro ...   Re: Re: He missed the point   
afh
Nov 4, 2004, 23:46:24
 
Once again, we see a conservative journa ...   Corporate propaganda...   
chris
Sep 8, 2006, 18:33:48
 
"Here's the first and most important ...   They don't have to be killed or jailed!   
mike3
Oct 5, 2008, 03:42:00
 
"The ultimate goal is NOT to make propri ...   RE: He missed the point   
WaCoLaCo
Aug 28, 2009, 13:34:17
 
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