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:"Freedom Zero" and "Freedom or Power": Tim O'Reilly and FSF Leaders Debate
"Freedom Zero" and "Freedom or Power": Tim O'Reilly and FSF Leaders Debate
Aug 17, 2001, 12 :28 UTC (33 Talkback[s]) (10348 reads)

(Other stories by Tim O'Reilly) (As seen on LWN)

Tim O'Reilly:

"Craig Burton captured my off-the-cuff redefinition of Freedom Zero in the Q&A period following the debate between Craig Mundie and Michael Tiemann at the O'Reilly Open Source Convention. I was responding to Brett Glass's comments on why BSD-style licenses are preferable to the GPL. After an initial statement of agreement that BSD-style licenses are my personal preference for many of the same reasons that Brett has given, here's what I went on to say:

"Freedom Zero for me is to offer the fruit of your work on the terms that work for you. I think that is what is absolutely critical here. Let there be competition in the marketplace; that is the answer. Let people use whatever license they choose and if their customers don't like it they will have other choices. Because of the technological changes, we are entering an era of greater choice. The fact is, Microsoft's past history is past. We are entering a new era, not of just open source but of profound technological changes. The future is open and we can make that future be what we want it to be."

Some people might not recognize the reference to "Freedom Zero" as a takeoff on the first of Richard Stallman's four freedoms from the Free Software Definition:"

Complete Story

Bradley Kuhn and Richard M. Stallman:

"Freedom is being able to make decisions that affect mainly you. Power is being able to make decisions that affect others more than you. If we confuse power with freedom, we will fail to uphold real freedom. That is what Tim O'Reilly did in his essay, My Definition of Freedom Zero. He advocated a "basic freedom" which is really a form of power.

Tim O'Reilly says the most fundamental software freedom is: "The freedom to choose any license you want for software you write." Unstated, but clearly implied, is that one person or corporation chooses the rules to impose on everyone else. In the world that O'Reilly proposes, a few make the basic software decisions for everyone. That is power, not freedom. He should call it "powerplay zero" in contrast with our "freedom zero".

We in the Free Software Movement want programmers to have freedom. Most of us are programmers, and we want freedom for ourselves as well as for you. But each of us uses software written by others, and we want freedom when using that software -- not just when using our own code."

Complete Story

O'Reilly's Response:

"Bradley clearly misunderstands my article and my argument. First off, if you accept his definition of freedom as "being able to make decisions that affect mainly you" versus power as "being able to make decisions that affect others more than you", then clearly the GPL is just as much about "power" as any Microsoft license, since it is binding on all who use the software, and has the explicit goal of "world domination."

Second, I did not say that "Microsoft has put its past behind it." What I said was that the market conditions that allowed Microsoft to act in such an abusive way have passed their peak, and that history is on our side in making them act in a more open way. It is really important not to make distorted distinctions based on temporary conditions, such as Microsoft's abuse of its monopoly position.

I want to be clear that I am in no way attacking the free software vision, which Bradley articulates so very well. I completely agree that a community of users who share software is a far better and more productive environment than one in which they are captive to vendors, especially if those vendors are doing things that are bad for users in order to maintain their competitive position."

Complete Story

Index Mode   |   Flat Mode   |   Thread Mode   |   Thread Flat  
  Talkback(s) Name  and Date
O'Reilly was caught in a Freudian sl ...   Interesting piece of propaganda...   
ME
Aug 17, 2001, 12:52:44
 
I guess the main aspect of the philosoph ...   Different Definitions of Freedom   
kmp
Aug 17, 2001, 13:02:27
 
O'Reilly: the market conditions that ...   MS no longer abusive?   
Thomas Pfau
Aug 17, 2001, 13:05:22
 
I think I will probably say something th ...   Power for Freedom   
Daniel
Aug 17, 2001, 13:08:19
 
I'm tired of all this nonsense.
The ...   Tired   
EMM
Aug 17, 2001, 13:25:06
 
Note to FSF:
Guys I love many of the th ...   FSF is contradicting itself   
Greg
Aug 17, 2001, 13:25:28
 
In addition you said: "But a choice of m ...   Re: FSF is contradicting itself   
Greg
Aug 17, 2001, 13:28:46
 
...is that one side wants people to be a ...   The bottom line, IMO...   
Lou
Aug 17, 2001, 13:48:14
 
From the RMS response:
 
Freedom is be ...   RMS BullHockey   
Dean Pannell (a.k.a. dinotrac)
Aug 17, 2001, 14:03:58
 
Only a fool ignores history.  There is N ...   Tim O'Reilly seems to have a pact with the dev   
Joe Black
Aug 17, 2001, 14:17:02
 
I agree that a developer can choose and  ...   Keeping people honest   
Nicholas Donovan
Aug 17, 2001, 15:27:07
 
The cult is finally being exposed.  The  ...   Interesting.....   
Anon
Aug 17, 2001, 15:29:35
 
If you create something, we will tell yo ...   Marxians from Uranus   
Stobor
Aug 17, 2001, 15:30:47
 
If average Americans heard the kind of a ...   RMS's Bolshevik Mentality   
Joe User
Aug 17, 2001, 15:35:19
 
The pro-GPL posters (eg Joe Black) here  ...   Freedom vs bashing Microsoft   
Donovan Rebbechi
Aug 17, 2001, 15:41:50
 

> The problem is that the GPL is not t ...   Re: Freedom vs bashing Microsoft   
Simon Farnsworth
Aug 17, 2001, 16:23:07
 
.NET is an architecture... C# is a langu ...   Re: MS no longer abusive?   
Isak Baldwin
Aug 17, 2001, 16:33:24
 
The problem with the FSF definition of " ...   Another Definition of Freedom   
Howard B. Golden
Aug 17, 2001, 17:39:59
 
> The pro-GPL posters (eg Joe Black) her ...   Re: Freedom vs bashing Microsoft   
Rufus Polson
Aug 17, 2001, 17:45:36
 
as a wise man once said.
When I look ar ...   A tree is known by its fruit...   
ME
Aug 17, 2001, 18:17:10
 
 RMS's statement is all the more rid ...   Re: Dean Pannell BullHockey   
Woomalooma
Aug 17, 2001, 18:54:24
 
> .NET is an architecture... C# is a lan ...   Re: Re: MS no longer abusive?   
Nicholas Donovan
Aug 17, 2001, 19:01:26
 
> Before you resume your usual KDE inspi ...   Re: Re: Dean Pannell BullHockey   
Dean Pannell (a.k.a. dinotrac)
Aug 17, 2001, 19:49:36
 
Oh my gosh, has Hell frozen over?   Anon ...   Re: Interesting   
AJWM
Aug 17, 2001, 19:50:52
 
...people who use them, frankly, want to ...   Re: Re: Freedom vs bashing Microsoft   
David Johnson
Aug 17, 2001, 19:56:26
 
When I look at non-GPL software I see Pe ...   Re: A tree is known by its fruit...   
David Johnson
Aug 17, 2001, 19:58:10
 
> Four legs good, two legs better, (seen ...   Re: Marxians from Uranus   
anonymous
Aug 17, 2001, 20:12:15
 
> ...people who use them, frankly, want  ...   Re: Re: Re: Freedom vs bashing Microsoft   
Rufus Polson
Aug 17, 2001, 21:14:04
 
> The problem with the FSF definition of ...   Re: Another Definition of Freedom   
Rufus Polson
Aug 17, 2001, 21:18:32
 
Freedom is a political concept.  All def ...   Re: Re: Another Definition of Freedom   
Howard B. Golden
Aug 17, 2001, 22:06:54
 
> > Four legs good, two legs better, (se ...   Re: Re: Marxians from Uranus   
Joshua Allen
Aug 18, 2001, 07:01:05
 
> So if you chop off two of a pig's  ...   Re: Re: Re: Marxians from Uranus   
Dean Pannell (a.k.a. dinotrac)
Aug 18, 2001, 19:25:14
 
> ...people who use them, frankly, want  ...   Re: Re: Re: Freedom vs bashing Microsoft   
Martin Vermeer
Aug 19, 2001, 14:15:23
 
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