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:Eric S. Raymond: VA going proprietary? Naahhh...
Eric S. Raymond: VA going proprietary? Naahhh...
Aug 25, 2001, 22 :10 UTC (86 Talkback[s]) (16402 reads)

(Other stories by Eric S. Raymond)

Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 02:24:41 -0400
From: "Eric S. Raymond" <esr@thyrsus.com>
To: lwn@lwn.net, editors@linuxtoday.com, malda@slashdot.org, editor@linux.com, editors@newsforge.com
Cc: eureka@valinux.com
Subject: VA going proprietary?  Naahhh...
VA's announcement that it would be selling proprietary add-ons to SourceForge has gotten big coverage [1], but there is less there than meets the eye. This is a change in tactics, not strategy.

What VA didn't say in the press release, and what Larry Augustin and the PR people knew in advance I was going to say on the community news channels, is the precise reason why this is happening.

What we've found out is that there is something of a disconnect, at the big corporate customers, between how the techologists and strategy people perceive open source and how middle management preceives it. The technology and strategy people, more often than not these days, actually get it. Middle managers, a more conservative group by nature and job description, often still don't.

This is specifically a problem because VA's sales guys often find themselves talking to middle managers who don't get it or only half get it. So they do their why-open-source-is-wonderful talk -- and the reaction they get is a sort of quasi-instinctive "uh, why don't we just download it from the web and install and maintain it ourselves instead of paying you to do it?"

Rationally, this is really pretty stupid. If you add up all the time and opportunity costs associated with having a bunch of your guys learn how to do this from scratch (and not necessarily doing it competently), renting VA's experts is clearly the smarter move. Usually the prospective customer knows that with the top of his mind, even -- but there are powerful instincts in the managerial underbrain pulling the other way.

So what do you do? Tell the customer he's being stupid? No, I don't think so.

What VA is doing instead is throwing a sop to those instincts by hanging some proprietary tinsel off the product. This makes it psychologically easier for Mr. Middle Manager to sign the check; he can think "I'm buying something real" -- as if bits on a disk are more real than the people-hours in the service contract that goes with it. But there it is; most sales and marketing is founded on the reality that people aren't very rational.

If we were still in a boom time, we might still have the luxury of perfect doctrinal purity. But face it, people, it's pretty much raining crap out there macroeconomically. Capital spending is in the tank and it's probably going to get worse before it gets better. Until things turn around, Mr. Middle Manager is going to be even more conservative than usual -- and thus more likely to be penny-wise and pound-foolish in the way that particularly hurts us.

We can hold on to the open-source vision, but under these circumstances we've concluded that we can't afford to be proud about how we pitch it. VA is a damn fine outfit with a lot of good people, but companies just as promising have already gone to the knackers' yard. It won't serve anybody if we go the same way. So we'll take any edge we can get, even if that means we MPL some stuff instead of GPLing it and have to have a few meg of closed code lying around.

And if you think VA has turned into just another corporate greed machine, ask yourself this -- how many companies would encourage one of their board members to post anything as brutally candid as I'm being here? But Larry Augustin knew I was going to do this and he smiled. We're still the same people and the same company that earned the Linux community's trust. I hope we'll never lose that. I'll work to be sure it's so.

So the real news here is that VA is still about open source -- if I didn't believe that, I'd be off their board of directors so fast it would make your head spin. We're just being pragmatic about how we sell the idea. Change peoples' behavior first, show them the advantages in doing so, and their hearts and minds will follow.

The religious fanatics out there won't be appeased by this, I know. I'm sure there will be cries of "Treason!", "Betrayal!", "Apostasy!" and so forth. We knew that. We'll stand it -- because surviving and thriving so we can continue to be the friends of open source is the most important service we can do for the community we come from.

[1] http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/cn/20010823/tc/va_linux_to_sell_proprietary_software_1.html

-- 
		Eric S. Raymond

"Today, we need a nation of Minutemen, citizens who are not only prepared to
take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic
purpose of their daily life and who are willing to consciously work and
sacrifice for that freedom."	-- John F. Kennedy

Index Mode   |   Flat Mode   |   Thread Mode   |   Thread Flat  
  Talkback(s) Name  and Date
Of course, ESR would make excuses even i ...   ESR   
Costin
Aug 25, 2001, 19:48:05
 
I&#39;ve hit upon the same mindshare mys ...   It's Cool..   
David D. Huff Jr.
Aug 25, 2001, 19:58:36
 
Sorry ESR, but this ain&#39;t gonna cut  ...   PR Spin   
steve
Aug 25, 2001, 19:58:41
 
Wow you can&#39;t by that kind of PR pow ...   ESR: sellin out for penny stocks   
gnuts
Aug 25, 2001, 20:07:01
 
Sorry, but this is starting to remind me ...   Maybe, but   
Nobody
Aug 25, 2001, 20:09:03
 
Two observations:

1. This posting sta ...   Shades of Condit ?   
Arun Sharma
Aug 25, 2001, 20:22:23
 
It is obvious to me that Eric Raymond wi ...   I agree. ESR is owned   
Lucas Ericsson
Aug 25, 2001, 20:23:04
 
> Of course, ESR would make excuses even ...   Re: ESR   
Nicholas Donovan
Aug 25, 2001, 20:25:39
 
or maybe ESR actually believes in what V ...   Re: ESR   
feldspar
Aug 25, 2001, 20:36:17
 
> > Of course, ESR would make excuses ev ...   Re: Re: ESR   
Costin
Aug 25, 2001, 20:49:13
 
ESR&#39;s motivation is simple. His stoc ...   Re: Re: ESR   
mark
Aug 25, 2001, 20:58:56
 
Let&#39;s face it. There&#39;s lots of v ...   lots of value, little money   
bullmailer
Aug 25, 2001, 21:10:04
 
>instinctive "uh, why don&#39;t we just  ...   My favorite....   
Anon
Aug 25, 2001, 21:16:54
 
> Would you care to justify that stateme ...   Re: Re: ESR   
Dean Pannell (a.k.a. dinotrac)
Aug 25, 2001, 21:34:07
 
> ESR&#39;s motivation is simple. His st ...   Re: Re: Re: ESR   
feldspar
Aug 25, 2001, 21:41:12
 
> I&#39;m seriously considering pulling  ...   Re: Maybe, but   
feldspar
Aug 25, 2001, 21:42:37
 
This is almost too weird.  I don&#39;t k ...   Spin, baby, spin   
bob
Aug 25, 2001, 21:43:00
 
The Cathedral and the Bazar, not "Bizarr ...   Re: Re: Re: ESR   
Frédéric L. W. Meunier
Aug 25, 2001, 21:52:36
 
http://www.web-sites.co.uk/nasm/license. ...   NASM and SourceForge   
Frédéric L. W. Meunoer
Aug 25, 2001, 22:04:13
 
VA is in its rights to do what it does,  ...   ESR: it is not appropriate for you to say this   
Andy Tai
Aug 25, 2001, 22:05:11
 
A word from the wise, Eric - muzzle your ...   ESR has finally gone off the deep end.   
reaperx1
Aug 25, 2001, 22:10:51
 
> Sorry, but this is starting to remind  ...   Re: Maybe, but   
reaperx1
Aug 25, 2001, 22:13:31
 
> or maybe ESR actually believes in what ...   Re: Re: ESR   
reaperx1
Aug 25, 2001, 22:16:52
 
I won&#39;t address the previous comment ...   Mixed Source Companies   
Tim Cook
Aug 25, 2001, 22:25:40
 
"I&#39;ve hit upon the same mindshare my ...   Re: It's Cool..   
Don
Aug 25, 2001, 22:47:42
 
> > Would you care to justify that state ...   Re: Re: Re: ESR   
Costin
Aug 25, 2001, 23:03:22
 
Those of us who have a job, that is. Ala ...   We're all bought   
Marko Rauhamaa
Aug 25, 2001, 23:08:55
 
Two things:
1. MPL is considered open s ...   GPL vs MPL and Closed-source vs. Proprietary-sourc   
Daniel Morgan
Aug 25, 2001, 23:14:55
 
I work in a hospital. I&#39;m not in IT. ...   VA is right about the mindset   
Elivs
Aug 25, 2001, 23:27:01
 
I have been a linux user for a couple of ...   economic reality   
Rob Mandel
Aug 25, 2001, 23:38:24
 
> So here is the inevitable timetable: 
 ...   Re: lots of value, little money   
ack ack nak
Aug 25, 2001, 23:44:54
 
> But the point is, if you don&#39;t all ...   Re: economic reality   
Dean Pannell (a.k.a. dinotrac)
Aug 25, 2001, 23:55:21
 
Most of the freedom software community a ...   Double standard   
Alan W. Irwin
Aug 26, 2001, 00:36:58
 
 
One thing i think we all need to thin ...   economic reality   
Eric J Krejci
Aug 26, 2001, 00:43:51
 
If there is one stereotype that is true, ...   ESR's pro-closed arguments make no sense...   
Jebus
Aug 26, 2001, 01:34:25
 
... a person who only deffends free soft ...   This can only come from...   
Evandro
Aug 26, 2001, 01:57:33
 
See

http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?s ...   I advised VA Linux to do this in June.   
Brett Glass
Aug 26, 2001, 02:05:06
 
> I also wish a few more of the kiddies  ...   Re: Re: economic reality   
Frankie Tay
Aug 26, 2001, 02:11:17
 
> IBM (gasp) also sells proprietary soft ...   Re: Double standard   
Dean Pannell (a.k.a. dinotrac)
Aug 26, 2001, 02:17:53
 
what pisses me off the most is that they ...   what pisses me off   
Roger
Aug 26, 2001, 02:34:07
 
Well said Jebus. This is the best insigh ...   Re: ESR's pro-closed arguments make no sense..   
Art Ifice
Aug 26, 2001, 02:34:41
 
> Yes, I do think VA is going to go out  ...   Re: Re: lots of value, little money   
ack ack nak
Aug 26, 2001, 02:36:29
 
> > > Of course, ESR would make excuses  ...   Re: Re: Re: ESR (Open Source Business Models)   
Nicholas Donovan
Aug 26, 2001, 03:29:24
 
How often do you hear that line?

Many ...   "Free is worth exactly what you pay for it"   
BPK
Aug 26, 2001, 03:33:22
 
> > Would you care to justify that state ...   Re: Re: Re: ESR   
Nicholas Donovan
Aug 26, 2001, 03:41:03
 
Or whatever the appropriate collective n ...   A lurk of trolls   
AJWM
Aug 26, 2001, 03:56:49
 
Anon displays his typical lack of brilli ...   Re: My favorite   
AJWM
Aug 26, 2001, 04:09:12
 
I agree with the earlier "Animal Farm" r ...   Animal Farm   
The Cat
Aug 26, 2001, 04:59:42
 
> > > > Of course, ESR would make excuse ...   Re: Re: Re: Re: ESR (Open Source Business Models)   
Jobe
Aug 26, 2001, 05:44:34
 
> If there is one stereotype that is tru ...   Re: ESR's pro-closed arguments make no sense..   
mark kent
Aug 26, 2001, 08:22:01
 
"Steve" wrote:

So tell me this...how  ...   Re: PR Spin   
BSDguy
Aug 26, 2001, 08:32:54
 
> 
> Try out http://savannah.gnu.org (a ...   Re: Re: Maybe, but   
Nobody
Aug 26, 2001, 08:37:05
 
Arun Sharma wrote:

A simple and since ...   Shades of Arun being confused   
BSDguy
Aug 26, 2001, 08:46:59
 
reaperx1 wrote:

Right now, he&#39;s s ...   Re: Re: Re: ESR   
BSDguy
Aug 26, 2001, 09:03:16
 
I have never seen such a lot of morons i ...   Lots of Morons   
Sjaak Zomer
Aug 26, 2001, 09:15:14
 
> Those of us who have a job, that is. A ...   Re: We're all bought   
Rodney Quaye
Aug 26, 2001, 13:42:37
 
Eric appears to be saying

* Corporate ...   This really doesn't make much sense...   
Robert Krawitz
Aug 26, 2001, 14:12:42
 
 
> What he said is that middle manager ...   Re: Re: ESR's pro-closed arguments make no sen   
jebus
Aug 26, 2001, 16:03:28
 
SourceForge, LinuxToday and the vast maj ...   profit center - $10/whine   
Geoffrey Espin
Aug 26, 2001, 17:47:51
 
> You have no right to disparage the FSF ...   Re: Re: We're all bought   
Dean Pannell (a.k.a. dinotrac)
Aug 26, 2001, 18:11:00
 
> ... these folks will not buy something ...   Re: This really doesn't make much sense...   
Dean Pannell (a.k.a. dinotrac)
Aug 26, 2001, 18:18:45
 
> I have never seen such a lot of morons ...   Re: Lots of Morons   
Nick Mailer
Aug 26, 2001, 19:25:16
 
It really bugs me to hear so many people ...   Solve the real problem instead of just grousing ab   
Russell C Pavlicek
Aug 26, 2001, 20:38:39
 
He was to act as VA&#39;s conscience. No ...   Re: Re: Re: ESR   
I R A Darth Aggie
Aug 26, 2001, 20:42:14
 
                       Let me say it aga ...   One More Time... With Feeling   
Nicholas Donovan
Aug 26, 2001, 21:15:28
 
Here&#39;s an unanonymous troll for Stal ...   Re: A lurk of trolls   
Stuart Thayer
Aug 26, 2001, 21:54:50
 
I would like to express my support for V ...   Re: A lurk of trolls   
Artur Skura
Aug 26, 2001, 23:07:59
 
Thats all well and good, but its predica ...   Re: One More Time... With Feeling   
Jebus
Aug 26, 2001, 23:12:41
 
 > My tactic/strategy for VA Linux, is t ...   Re: profit center - $10/whine   
Jebus
Aug 26, 2001, 23:17:28
 
> If he was going to sell out, it would  ...   Re: Solve the real problem instead of just grousin   
Jebus
Aug 26, 2001, 23:23:33
 
> The implication is that these folks wi ...   Re: This really doesn't make much sense...   
Polmont
Aug 26, 2001, 23:27:29
 
> > If he was going to sell out, it woul ...   Re: Re: Solve the real problem instead of just gro   
Russell C Pavlicek
Aug 27, 2001, 00:19:38
 
> Thats all well and good, but its predi ...   Re: Re: One More Time... With Feeling   
Nicholas Donovan
Aug 27, 2001, 00:56:24
 
> I have seen ESR educate corporate peop ...   Re: Re: Re: Solve the real problem instead of just   
Dean Pannell (a.k.a. dinotrac)
Aug 27, 2001, 02:26:21
 
(Quote)So here is the inevitable timetab ...   Re: lots of value, little money   
Peter
Aug 27, 2001, 14:55:29
 
> Once again, the ridiculous stereotype  ...   Re: Re: Solve the real problem instead of just gro   
Kevin Reichert
Aug 27, 2001, 15:19:18
 
>>DEC&#39;s OpenUnix (yuck!?!) I recomme ...   Re: Re: Re: Solve the real problem instead of just   
Dean Pannell (a.k.a. dinotrac)
Aug 27, 2001, 15:36:44
 
Rather than go totally closed source, wh ...   ESR is funny   
skeeter
Aug 27, 2001, 19:09:19
 
The following snippets from  Surprised b ...   exerpts from Surprised by Wealth   
brando
Aug 27, 2001, 19:24:19
 
"skeeter" wrote:

Rather than go total ...   More misconceptions   
BSDguy
Aug 27, 2001, 23:13:26
 
The real problem is greed! Not content w ...   The real problem   
Justin Goldberg
Aug 27, 2001, 23:24:29
 
"Justin Goldberg" wrote:

The real pro ...   Re: The real problem   
BSDguy
Aug 28, 2001, 01:09:24
 
> Seven are under BSD-type licenses.  VA ...   Re: Re: The real problem   
Leo
Aug 28, 2001, 06:29:24
 
> Contrary to what most posters have bee ...   Re: Re: The real problem   
R.L.
Aug 28, 2001, 08:51:01
 
VA Linux is perfectly within their right ...   No longer an open source company   
Raymond
Aug 28, 2001, 17:24:37
 
Leo wrote:

This is the most common de ...   Re: Re: Re: The real problem   
BSDguy
Aug 28, 2001, 21:41:33
 
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