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:Community: W3C and the Promotion of Fee-based Standards for the Web
Community: W3C and the Promotion of Fee-based Standards for the Web
Sep 30, 2001, 16 :23 UTC (105 Talkback[s]) (40750 reads)

By Adam Warner

On 16 August 2001 the W3C made public a proposal to substantially change their patent policy framework. Amongst the changes is support for a new licensing model (called RAND) that legitimises the W3C's role in developing and promoting standards that could require the payment of royalties.

This is a substantial shift in the philosophical direction of the W3C and should be of extreme concern to anyone who values being able to implement W3C standards in a royalty-free manner. In particular this has profound implications for the support and implementation of future W3C standards by the free software community. It is likely to extinguish free software development and deployment in the areas where the payment of royalties is required.

The last call review period closes on 30 September 2001 (two days from the time I am writing this abstract). The W3C is aware of the importance of this issue and states "As the policy has ramifications on the Web community at large, and as the Web Community have consistently helped W3C in its efforts, views from this diverse community are essential."[1] However, as evidence of how well this issue has been publicised, only two relevant public comments have been made to the W3C archive to date. It is a matter of urgency that you make your views known. A final policy is expected from the W3C by February 2002.

Please email all comments or suggested corrections to this document to comment@openphd.net.

This draft is copyright Adam Warner, 28 September 2001. It may be distributed freely.

Table of Contents

  • An Overview of the W3C
  • W3C Recommendation Process
  • RAND Licensing
  • Legitimising RAND
  • Back-door RAND
  • RAND in Action
  • What You Can Do
  • Essential Reference

An Overview of the W3C

The World Wide Web Consortium (W3C, http://www.w3.org) has been highly successful to date in its pursuit of "leading the Web to its full potential". It actively promotes vendor neutral open and universal standards. Its membership is to be commended for its ability to achieve consensus and coordination with other standards bodies and consortia.

The W3C has over 500 member organisations and approximately 66 full-time employees. Even large and influential companies have only one vote at the Advisory Committee level.

Tim Berners-Lee, the Director of the W3C (http://www.w3.org/People/Berners-Lee) is also the inventor of the World Wide Web. The W3C is a distinguished organisation producing quality specifications, guidelines, software and validation tools.

The W3C is involved in these important areas:

  • The architecture domain (e.g. DOM, the Document Object Model).
  • Document formats (e.g. HTML, mathematics and graphics).
  • Interaction (e.g. multimedia).
  • Technological and societal issues (e.g. privacy, encryption and the legal issues).
  • Web accessibility initiatives (e.g. for user agents and authoring tools).

Crucially the work of the W3C is available to all.

The W3C has an ongoing role in the development of the World Wide Web from purely static document hosting to dynamic documents, application services and automated applications.
W3C Recommendation Process

The W3C recommendation process typically follows a five step procedure:

  • Interested parties submit notes to the W3C.
  • A working draft is produced (these typically come with big disclaimers, and their citing as anything other than work in progress is inappropriate).
  • Candidate recommendations are made.
  • A recommendation is proposed (this means the working group has reached consensus and the work has been proposed by the Director to the Advisory Committee for review).
  • Recommendation. These have been ratified and can be relied upon to not change.

The W3C's Patent Policy Framework is at the Working Draft stage. The Working Draft plainly states: "This Last Call period will be the only opportunity for public comment."[2]

Remember that "The Last Call period closes 30 September 2001."

Furthermore, "As we have begun to use portions of the policy in the day-to-day operations of W3C, we plan to skip the Candidate Recommendation and move directly to an Advisory Committee Review of a Proposed Recommendation draft." Later in this article I will show some of the consequences of this in the release of the Scalable Vector Graphics (SVG 1.0) Recommendation.

RAND Licensing

This is the new licensing model the W3C is proposing that will allow for non-royalty-free standards to become W3C sanctioned recommendations. RAND stands for "Reasonable And Non-Discriminatory" terms. "RAND means that someone may or may not need to pay a fee, and that it is at the discretion of the license holder."[3]

In essence it requires that any company that imposes licensing restriction must impose those restrictions uniformly (the non-discriminatory part of the definition). It appears to follow that non-commercial organisations cannot be given any preferential treatment over commercial organisations since that would be discriminatory licensing.

The Working Draft (http://www.w3.org/TR/patent-policy/) (reproduced in the Patent Policy Frequently Asked Questions, http://www.w3.org/2001/08/16-PP-FAQ) also states that RAND allows for licensing audits (RAND "may include reasonable, customary terms relating to operation or maintenance of the license relationship such as the following: audit (when relevant to fees), choice of law, and dispute resolution.")

Legitimising RAND
The W3C states that "Recommendations addressing higher-level services may be appropriate for licensing on reasonable and non-discriminatory (RAND) terms." It is clear that "patent processes will increasingly affect the Web. These factors make it clear that the W3C must have an effective policy to address the inevitable increase in patent issues that will come before the W3C Membership and the development community as a whole." What isn't clear is that the appropriate response is for the W3C to condone RAND licensing terms and to actively promote non-free licenses.

As part of the theoretical underpinning of this new policy we are told: "On the other hand, there are other technologies, typically higher level, where it might be appropriate to accept fee-bearing requirements in a Recommendation. It is worth restating that, as of today, W3C is not aware of any fee-based license required for any of its Recommendations. Thus, there is an established history of RF [Royalty Free]."

This distinction between lower and higher level technologies appears to be somewhat arbitrary and misleading. Any technology that becomes sufficiently used on the World Wide Web will become a part of everyday infrastructure. For example it might be considered that a moving picture format is sufficiently high level for RAND licensing to be appropriate. But if that moving picture format becomes an integrated baseline technology in future products then the chance of a future fee being associated with that technology could be devastating.[4]

The W3C has recognised the pressures from (some of) its members to be able to exploit the potentially lucrative Internet-related patents they have been accumulating. There appears to be a resignation that it may be better for the W3C to promote standards that have non-free conditions attached rather than to receive no consensus on potential recommendations.

However by doing this the W3C is diminishing the significant tool they have to encourage royalty-free licensing: their official stamp of approval on Internet technologies and credit to the companies that provide those technologies. The support of the W3C is an important factor for a web-based standard to achieve dominance. A company might be willing to provide their intellectual property on royalty-free terms to receive W3C approval and thus an increasing chance for their sponsored standard to become widely adopted. Now those same companies may think they can get the best of both worlds: A W3C recommendation and the reserved right to charge licensing fees in the future.

The prospect of future fees could also have a chilling effect upon free/open source software development. Standards that require licensing fees to implement are, for obvious reasons, totally incompatible with the use of free software. If the free/open source software communities will not be able to rely upon the W3C to pursue royalty-free standards the question has to be raised whether the support of a new institution is appropriate. Given my admiration for all the W3C has contributed to the development of the World Wide Web this would be a tragic development.

Back-door RAND
If an Advisory Committee Representative to the W3C (each member organisation of the W3C has an ACR) fails to respond to requests for patent disclosures by default "they will commit their Member company to license all Essential Claims needed to implement W3C recommendations on at least RAND terms. This is true whether any personnel from the Member company participates in a WG or not."

This means oversight, negligence or perhaps deception is rewarded by requiring the commitment to a RAND license rather than a royalty-free one. If a relevant patent was disclosed at the appropriate time it might have been worked around, or the working group may have even disbanded. For members to face a financial incentive to disclose there should be a deterrent in the form of royalty-free licensing. Few things would be more lucrative than being entitled to charge RAND fees on an established W3C web standard though a simple oversight. RAND in Action

Even though RAND is only a Working Draft and public comment has for the first time been solicited (and very shortly closes) the W3C has already begun using RAND in its day-to-day operations. This can be seen in the recently released Scalable Vector Graphics Standard (SVG 1.0): http://www.w3.org/2001/07/SVG10-IPR-statements.html

Apple, IBM, Eastman Kodak and Quark have all only been willing to supply their intellectual property or potential future intellectual property under RAND licensing terms. This means that in the event that one of their patents overlap the SVG specification they have reserved the right to start charging royalties or set other licensing restrictions upon a non-discriminatory basis.

Presently the SVG specification is free to use. The uncovering of a favourable patent or a legal reinterpretation could change that. For example it is stated: "Kodak does not believe it currently has any essential claims that fall within the specification of the Recommendation as currently understood and interpreted by Kodak for implementors of SVG. However, Kodak hereby identifies U.S. Patent 5,459,819 and affirms that in the event that any claim of this patent is interpreted as an essential claim within the specification of the Recommendation in its current or later amended form, Kodak agrees to provide a RAND License as set forth in the previous paragraph."

The significant change here is that Kodak (as a particular example) are not giving standards users an assurance that they will be able to continue to use SVG on a royalty-free basis in the future. A windfall judgement and we could have a problem of GIF-style proportions--even though SVG is a W3C sanctioned standard and the company potentially doing the enforcing helped create the standard for people to freely use in the first place. Users could feel far more secure that SVG will remain a free standard if for example Kodak said that in the event that any claim of their patent is interpreted as an essential claim within the specification of the Recommendation in its current or later amended form, Kodak agrees to provide a royalty-free license.

What You Can Do

  1. As a matter of urgency, send a comment to www-patentpolicy-comment@w3.org before 30 September 2001. You can check out the current archive of responses here: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-patentpolicy-comment/.
  2. Spread the word about this issue as soon as possible.
  3. Ask companies that are members of the W3C to give an undertaking to only support the development of royalty-free standards. This will require significant change to the Working Draft of the W3C's Patent Policy Framework.
  4. Do you have a professional relationship with any of the authors or companies of the Working Draft? If so it may be appropriate to send a message to the relevant organisation. These are the listed authors of the Working Draft:

It is also stated here: http://www.w3.org/2001/08/patentnews that "W3C Members Apple, AT&T, Hewlett-Packard, IBM, ILOG, Microsoft, Nortel Networks, The Open Group, Philips Electronics, Reuters, and Sun worked on this draft together with W3C Team members."

Essential Reference

W3C Patent Policy Framework, W3C Working Draft 16 August 2001: http://www.w3.org/TR/patent-policy/

Backgrounder for W3C Patent Policy Framework: http://www.w3.org/2001/08/patentnews

Patent Policy Frequently Asked Questions (FAQs): http://www.w3.org/2001/08/16-PP-FAQ

SVG 1.0 Patent Statements:
http://www.w3.org/2001/07/SVG10-IPR-statements.html

Notes
[1] http://www.w3.org/2001/08/patentnews [2] http://www.w3.org/TR/patent-policy/ [3] http://www.w3.org/2001/08/patentnews [4] For example, a scenario where the majority of future web appliances included this decoding ability in their ROM.


Index Mode   |   Flat Mode   |   Thread Mode   |   Thread Flat  
  Talkback(s) Name  and Date
Many thanks to Michael Hall for contacti ...   Thanks   
Adam Warner
Sep 30, 2001, 00:50:26
 
    * Michele Herman, Microsoft, michele ...   Notice the people on the draft...   
Svartalf
Sep 30, 2001, 01:52:12
 
As usual: the many could prevent public  ...   Ah the tragedy of the commons   
Jeremiah
Sep 30, 2001, 01:54:28
 
That can be possibly influential. Large  ...   What can we say ...   
Unknown Crony
Sep 30, 2001, 02:42:47
 
Once again it appears that pressure is b ...   FSF creates an alternative SPEC group?   
steel
Sep 30, 2001, 02:46:59
 
The writer is almost saying that a usabl ...   Our worst fears realized....   
William M. Perkins
Sep 30, 2001, 02:55:21
 
They ask for public comment and I only h ...   WTF is this??????   
Leo
Sep 30, 2001, 03:34:37
 
On 16 August 2001 the W3C made public a  ...   Today IS September 30th.   
Greg Smith
Sep 30, 2001, 05:12:38
 
> On 16 August 2001 the W3C made public  ...   Re: Today IS September 30th.   
Adam Warner
Sep 30, 2001, 06:38:18
 
There should be a new consortium for man ...   a new consortium   
steel
Sep 30, 2001, 07:45:36
 
Argghh!!!

I don't believe this. b ...   bad.   
certron
Sep 30, 2001, 07:52:42
 

This is a copy of the mail I've ju ...   Letter to W3C   
Mark Kent
Sep 30, 2001, 08:11:17
 
Running towards your destiny 'cause  ...   "But we posted it"   
Charles
Sep 30, 2001, 08:55:56
 
W3C IS SELLING OUT!!!  They are placing  ...   Re: a new consortium   
Anthony Lander
Sep 30, 2001, 09:02:45
 
> They ask for public comment and I only ...   Re: WTF is this?????? - YO   
Mark Kent
Sep 30, 2001, 09:17:27
 
This looks like the commercial variant o ...   RAND and GPL   
Sjaak Zomer
Sep 30, 2001, 09:25:12
 
Okay, does this mean that the W3C are go ...   erm?   
Binky
Sep 30, 2001, 09:34:19
 
I've met and talked with Scott Peter ...   SP's a good egg   
Karsten M. Self
Sep 30, 2001, 09:38:30
 
> 
> This is a copy of the mail I'v ...   Re: Letter to W3C   
Nick Mailer
Sep 30, 2001, 10:41:27
 
W3 is like many times in the past not ab ...   new consortium/new standards   
Frederik Vos
Sep 30, 2001, 10:45:09
 
I saw your article too late last night t ...   Hope that isn't 9/30 UTC   
Dean Pannell (a.k.a. dinotrac)
Sep 30, 2001, 11:29:36
 
This is what I wrote to the W3:

Hi, m ...   My Letter   
Levi
Sep 30, 2001, 11:32:45
 
I just want to let you all know that a n ...   Visit http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-pate   
Adam Warner
Sep 30, 2001, 13:00:48
 
An opportunity has passed. 
Mankind mus ...   RIP WWW   
charles esson
Sep 30, 2001, 13:20:38
 
...and me thinking all the time W3C was  ...   They really succeeded in keeping this secret   
Martin Vermeer
Sep 30, 2001, 13:26:46
 
So here is my Letter:

--------------- ...   RAND License   
Volker Hett
Sep 30, 2001, 13:58:42
 

Terrible  terrible terrible news.

T ...   The price for Freedom is continuos vigilance.   
Lungo detto Il Maltese
Sep 30, 2001, 13:58:43
 
Thanks for leading the charge on this Ad ...   Good job, Adam, Michael!   
Jerry
Sep 30, 2001, 13:59:14
 
That policy will kill W3C as an effectiv ...   The death of W3C   
John Sowa
Sep 30, 2001, 15:05:02
 
Common guys...

Get real.  No one is a ...   I don't think anyone is blaming LT or Adam   
Leo
Sep 30, 2001, 15:14:25
 
Let's keep an eye on IBM, Sun, HP, e ...   let's watch IBM, Sun, HP and other Free Softwa   
Leo
Sep 30, 2001, 15:47:15
 
Obviously the W3C has lost its collectiv ...   W3C Patent Policy Letter   
csm
Sep 30, 2001, 16:24:58
 
That is exactly how I feel.
Notice they ...   Re:They really succeeded in keeping this secret   
Mingjui Liao
Sep 30, 2001, 16:40:27
 
>           * Barry Rein, Pennie & Edmon ...   Re: W3C Patent Policy Letter   
Chuck Mead
Sep 30, 2001, 17:02:22
 
> > On 16 August 2001 the W3C made publi ...   Re: Re: Today IS September 30th.   
Greg Smith
Sep 30, 2001, 17:16:48
 

Open standard is "open and free" to ex ...   Will you pay to Microsoft for use of "1" and "0"   
Joe Adams
Sep 30, 2001, 17:22:26
 
For the W3C to have attempted to sneak t ...   The Violation of A Public Trust   
JavaMan
Sep 30, 2001, 17:43:36
 
> That policy will kill W3C as an effect ...   Re: The death of W3C   
Martin Vermeer
Sep 30, 2001, 17:48:34
 
Lets look at it closely. As long as the  ...   Rather than a knee jerk reaction...   
James
Sep 30, 2001, 18:00:56
 
> That is exactly how I feel.
> Notice  ...   Re: Re:They really succeeded in keeping this secre   
Svartalf
Sep 30, 2001, 18:13:11
 
All good people who value freedom must s ...   It's time for all good people to stand togethe   
Alex
Sep 30, 2001, 18:18:39
 

That policy will kill W3C as an effect ...   Re: The death of W3C   
ac
Sep 30, 2001, 18:25:18
 
My comment to the the W3C's Patent P ...   RAND Would Destroy W3C   
Greg Smith
Sep 30, 2001, 18:29:13
 
>The W3C's Patent Policy Framework i ...   Re: They really succeeded in keeping this secret   
Mingjui Liao
Sep 30, 2001, 19:07:26
 
As a developer writing software that is  ...   My comment to the mail list...   
Svartalf
Sep 30, 2001, 19:08:48
 
My comments, sent a few minutes ago, wer ...   My letter to W3C   
Attila Mate
Sep 30, 2001, 19:11:18
 
Agreed; kudos to both of you!
Message c ...   Re: Good job, Adam, Michael!   
Karl Jackson
Sep 30, 2001, 19:14:11
 
The ratio is now over 300:1 against RAND ...   Oh, by the way...   
Svartalf
Sep 30, 2001, 19:26:13
 
It should be coming obvious to all of us ...   pollution and eradication of standards   
John Helms
Sep 30, 2001, 19:34:47
 
I think that the W3C can be fixed.  One  ...   Re: a new consortium   
Joshua M. Prowse
Sep 30, 2001, 20:05:35
 
You're right that the OSS community  ...   Re: Rather than a knee jerk reaction...   
Joshua Prowse
Sep 30, 2001, 20:09:51
 
Open standards efforts and the increasin ...   Well it was nice while it lasted   
Michael Moore
Sep 30, 2001, 20:20:04
 

> 
> I am not, in principle, opposed  ...   Re: Hope that isn't 9/30 UTC   
Jeff
Sep 30, 2001, 20:24:19
 

BTW Dean, I'd bitched in the past  ...   Re: Thanks, Dean   
Jeff
Sep 30, 2001, 20:39:30
 
Sell out covered up by NewSpeak

From: ...   What I posted on the W3C site   
Jerry
Sep 30, 2001, 20:40:25
 
I have been an Internet user since 1994  ...   NO to RAND Proposal   
T.D.
Sep 30, 2001, 20:40:51
 

> Who gave W3C the authority to contro ...   Re: It's time for all good people to stand tog   
Jeff
Sep 30, 2001, 20:44:21
 

The problem is that most standards bod ...   The Problem   
engineer_scotty
Sep 30, 2001, 21:15:27
 
Keep for-profit technologies out of open ...   NO to W3C RAND Proposal   
T. Thompson
Sep 30, 2001, 21:17:29
 
With this new edict, there shall be no m ...   There shall be nothing but consumption.   
dennis young
Sep 30, 2001, 21:22:50
 
This is a section of the email I sent th ...   Another riff on Rand destroying W3C   
Rufus Polson
Sep 30, 2001, 21:25:37
 
With this new edict, there shall be no m ...   NO freedom, only consumption   
Dennis Young
Sep 30, 2001, 21:48:11
 
> There should be a new consortium for m ...   Re: a new consortium   
Gary Rutter
Sep 30, 2001, 22:09:58
 
I'm adding my voice to those which a ...   My comments to W3C   
Karsten M. Self
Sep 30, 2001, 22:51:47
 
Dear Readers of Linux Today,

Since th ...   Comments on the Patent Policy Framework   
Janet Daly
Sep 30, 2001, 22:52:39
 
I think it's unfortunate and unfair  ...   Comments   
Randy Kramer
Sep 30, 2001, 23:05:01
 
If RAND gets implemented, W3C degenerate ...   W3C becomes a pawn in acartel   
Kelvin Param
Sep 30, 2001, 23:12:46
 
Who bought the W3C? I didn't even kn ...   sold   
grouch
Sep 30, 2001, 23:41:31
 
The message is VERY clear that large com ...   The message is clear....   
Victoria
Sep 30, 2001, 23:53:43
 
ok, lets create one.

at first we shou ...   Re: a new consortium   
enrico weigelt
Oct 1, 2001, 02:01:38
 
Now that I have your attention...

... ...   Did any of you actually read the document on W3C.o   
TJ
Oct 1, 2001, 02:54:51
 
Hmm, lot's of people just saying NO, ...   Re: Comments on the Patent Policy Framework   
Anac
Oct 1, 2001, 03:22:10
 
 25% of Microsoft's little internet  ...   Well, we run the servers...   
Tony
Oct 1, 2001, 03:35:20
 
> It seems that a lot of folks don't ...   Re: Did any of you actually read the document on W   
Svartalf
Oct 1, 2001, 04:20:15
 
>If a group like W3C finds it fit to sup ...   Re: FSF creates an alternative SPEC group?   
Dennis Lee
Oct 1, 2001, 04:31:59
 
No thanks to W3C hijacking.  
If they d ...   Re: Did any of you actually read the document on W   
No to W3C
Oct 1, 2001, 04:35:43
 
Janet Daley writes to the LinuxToday dis ...   Re: Comments on the Patent Policy Framework   
Frank C. Earl (a.k.a. Svartalf)
Oct 1, 2001, 04:55:02
 
>     * Michele Herman, Microsoft, miche ...   Re: Notice the people on the draft...   
Alex Berkman
Oct 1, 2001, 06:22:53
 
> Now that I have your attention...
> 
 ...   Re: Did any of you actually read the document on W   
Leo
Oct 1, 2001, 06:24:10
 
I attempted to submit the following to t ...   Re: Comments on the Patent Policy Framework   
Karsten M. Self
Oct 1, 2001, 06:49:27
 
Dear Janet@w3.org
   

> Dear Readers ...   Re: Comments on the Patent Policy Framework   
grouch
Oct 1, 2001, 07:01:07
 
The October archive is here:
 
http:// ...   The W3C Patent Policy Archive is still working ng   
Adam Warner
Oct 1, 2001, 08:37:21
 
> As many of you may have missed the Aug ...   Re: Comments on the Patent Policy Framework   
David Brownell
Oct 1, 2001, 09:43:38
 
At least one of the earlier comments (Fr ...   Re: let's watch IBM, Sun, HP and other Free So   
David Brownell
Oct 1, 2001, 09:55:12
 
I concur with the irritation of replies  ...   yea, Janet's reply was the rudest thing I'   
Leo
Oct 1, 2001, 12:41:31
 
What is there to discuss? Either you wan ...   Re: They really succeeded in keeping this secret   
eugene
Oct 1, 2001, 13:44:18
 
Seems like a large number of people woul ...   RAND   
Chris S
Oct 1, 2001, 13:47:18
 
[snip]
 The internet and open source ar ...   Re: pollution and eradication of standards   
Jerry Kreps
Oct 1, 2001, 14:59:22
 
What the W3C wants is to discuss the det ...   Details   
Jean Zundel
Oct 1, 2001, 15:50:38
 
I do not know why the action they are tr ...   I dont know why this should surprise us   
Stephen Toothman
Oct 1, 2001, 16:02:18
 
Linux is moving faster than ever in the  ...   Re: Re: Did any of you actually read the document   
Victoria
Oct 1, 2001, 17:29:40
 
 Linux is moving faster than ever in the ...   Re: Re: Re: Did any of you actually read the docum   
Myddrin
Oct 1, 2001, 17:49:26
 
The appropriate response by the W3C is t ...   Re: Did any of you actually read the document on W   
Dean Pannell (a.k.a. dinotrac)
Oct 1, 2001, 19:01:02
 
There's over 160 replies to the list ...   Interesting tidbit...   
Svartalf
Oct 1, 2001, 21:45:27
 
Unfortunate?  Not Hardly.  This bespeaks ...   Unfortunate?   
Charles Hixson
Oct 1, 2001, 22:30:32
 
No, we are not small. If you check the s ...   Re: Our worst fears realized....   
Victoria
Oct 2, 2001, 00:56:23
 
As the only people or organization that  ...   Janet Daily: being contructive   
Jacek Piskozub
Oct 2, 2001, 05:42:19
 
I see calls for a new consortium now if  ...   New consortium   
Matt
Oct 2, 2001, 12:51:05
 
> The appropriate response to this polic ...   Re: The death of W3C   
Terje
Oct 2, 2001, 17:14:23
 
>>What is there to discuss? Either you w ...   Re: Re: They really succeeded in keeping this secr   
Tim Sharpe
Oct 2, 2001, 20:25:50
 
Note that Apple is only willing to cross ...   Apples' tricky terms   
Mike Patton
Oct 2, 2001, 22:58:40
 
From Adam Warner's  report, Pennie & ...   Pennie & Edmond's and W3C   
Hadley V. Baxendale
Oct 2, 2001, 23:22:46
 
Good points, Leo.  If something sucks, n ...   Re: Leo: Did any of you actually read the document   
TJ
Oct 3, 2001, 03:31:44
 
info@vividpetals.com:

where is Free s ...   Re: What can we say ...   
winmore zimmermann
Oct 4, 2001, 13:58:03
 
I know I will be shot down for saying th ...   W3C is dead   
Chris Beach
Jul 10, 2004, 23:33:55
 
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