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:Stallman and Kuhn on the freedom to choose license
Stallman and Kuhn on the freedom to choose license
Nov 23, 2001, 01 :11 UTC (127 Talkback[s]) (12906 reads)

Mikael Pawlo writes:

As reported by Gnuheter, a new essay published by Bradley M Kuhn och Richard M Stallman carries the title "Freedom or Power?". The authors state something that we might have suspected from essays from Kuhn and Stallman before, but now is a little more clear, if still ambiguous:

"However, one so-called freedom that we do not advocate is the "freedom to choose any license you want for software you write". We reject this because it is really a form of power, not a freedom."

The essay is interesting in the light of an earlier essay published by Eric S Raymond. Raymond states:

"In other words, Stallman and Kuhn want to be able to make decisions that affect other developers more than themselves. By the definition they themselves have proposed, they want power".

Tim O'Reilly started the debate with his weblog of July 28, 2001: My definition of freedom zero, where O'Reilly states:

"If Freedom Zero for developers is the freedom to offer software on whatever terms the developer sets and a user will accept; Freedom Zero for users is the right to choose whatever software they like, without interference from platform vendors who try to deny that choice."

The issue is not simple. Stallman and Kuhn could be attacked on liberal grounds and even more so on libertarian grounds. This notwithstanding, you probably find a point in their statement:

"We believe you should decide what to do with the software you use; however, that is not what today's law says. Current copyright law places us in the position of power over users of our code, whether we like it or not. The ethical response to this situation is to proclaim freedom for each user, just as the Bill of Rights was supposed to exercise government power by guaranteeing each citizen's freedoms. That is what the GNU GPL is for: it puts you in control of your usage of the software, while protecting you from others who would like to take control of your decisions."

I am not sure whether Raymond, Stallman or O'Reilly is right, but to paraphrase Esther Dyson: the conversation continues.


Index Mode   |   Flat Mode   |   Thread Mode   |   Thread Flat  
  Talkback(s) Name  and Date
I'm a Libertarian. I don't want  ...   Sorry, Richard, this is where I get off the bus.   
cr
Nov 23, 2001, 02:13:45
 
I wonder what Stallman and Kuhn think of ...   Creativity and ownership   
Mark Allan
Nov 23, 2001, 02:42:00
 
RMS continues to astound.  What is the d ...   Freedome or Ego?   
a
Nov 23, 2001, 03:16:27
 
Well, give them points for consistency o ...   Again?   
Dean Pannell (a.k.a. dinotrac)
Nov 23, 2001, 03:33:04
 
IMHO, the title and the portions of text ...   still attacking proprietary software   
kws
Nov 23, 2001, 03:41:49
 
I understand where Stallman and Kuhn are ...   Not sure I agree   
Ganesh Prasad
Nov 23, 2001, 05:06:13
 
Well, at least he finally he came out an ...   Stallman   
jorge
Nov 23, 2001, 05:15:34
 
"However, one so-called freedom that we  ...   Sophistry   
Eric Laffoon
Nov 23, 2001, 06:17:29
 
It's too bad RS can't see what e ...   Cause and Effect   
Paul
Nov 23, 2001, 06:22:54
 
"All power is derived from the barrel of ...   I Believe the proper quote is...   
Alan Olsen
Nov 23, 2001, 07:15:27
 
is not always best for the company that  ...   I think that what is best for customers   
Jimmy the Geek
Nov 23, 2001, 07:45:56
 
RMS has undoubtably contributed much to  ...   Time for RMS to step down?   
Micah Yoder
Nov 23, 2001, 08:00:09
 
Should I be allowed to walk into a museu ...   Re: Creativity and ownership   
Cyd
Nov 23, 2001, 08:07:50
 
I think that at the heart of this contro ...   Programming and Speech   
Rob van Son
Nov 23, 2001, 08:43:20
 
The example needs some correction I thin ...   paintings are not softwares   
prygmi
Nov 23, 2001, 08:55:11
 
> I wonder what Stallman and Kuhn think  ...   Re: Creativity and ownership   
JFM
Nov 23, 2001, 09:34:07
 
> The FSF considers a program NOT as a P ...   Re: Programming and Speech   
reihal
Nov 23, 2001, 09:34:32
 
> ...> commercial software.  It seems li ...   Re: still attacking proprietary software   
mercury
Nov 23, 2001, 09:39:37
 
 The FSF sees a program as a form of spe ...   Re: Programming and Speech   
ac
Nov 23, 2001, 09:48:48
 
> Are we as a society saying that becaus ...   Re: I think that what is best for customers   
mercury
Nov 23, 2001, 09:54:07
 
In response to some of the previous comm ...   context   
joan
Nov 23, 2001, 10:18:41
 
If you accept that people have a right t ...   Rights of the owner   
bil
Nov 23, 2001, 10:30:20
 
Don't be ridiculous.  The situation  ...   Re: Creativity and ownership   
David Golden
Nov 23, 2001, 10:32:26
 
"choice of masters is not freedom".  Per ...   Re: Cause and Effect   
David Golden
Nov 23, 2001, 10:42:15
 
> If I spend 10 years of my life coming  ...   Re: Creativity and ownership   
Luciano Giordana
Nov 23, 2001, 10:48:06
 
I live in a country that the vote in man ...   Re: Not sure I agree   
Luciano Giordana
Nov 23, 2001, 10:51:51
 
Is he really suggesting that people shou ...   Re: Time for RMS to step down?   
Martin Vermeer
Nov 23, 2001, 10:52:26
 
The hostility shown towards these argume ...   Hostility   
Nick Mailer
Nov 23, 2001, 10:58:49
 
ESR:> "In other words, Stallman and Kuhn ...   My 2L worth of flamable liquid   
Carsten Svaneborg
Nov 23, 2001, 11:12:11
 
"Should I be allowed to walk into a muse ...   Re: Creativity and ownership   
Nathan Hand
Nov 23, 2001, 12:25:59
 
RMS has undoubtably contributed much to  ...   Re: Time for RMS to step down?   
toby
Nov 23, 2001, 13:03:40
 
"Your freedom to swing your fist stops a ...   Time for your ILLUSIONS to step down?   
Rodney Quaye
Nov 23, 2001, 13:04:25
 
Well, at least he finally he came out an ...   Re: Stallman   
toby
Nov 23, 2001, 13:08:05
 
This is the current situation with recor ...   Re: I think that what is best for customers   
tonyl
Nov 23, 2001, 13:30:53
 
I totally disagree with BK & RSM on this ...   Horses for courses   
Dude
Nov 23, 2001, 14:55:10
 
If you don't like the gpl then don&# ...   If you don't like it don't use it   
ajm
Nov 23, 2001, 14:59:09
 
Sure thing the statement "That is power, ...   What's wrong with that?   
Francesco Paparella
Nov 23, 2001, 15:03:07
 
I'm reminded of a quote I once read. ...   interesting notion of   
James Jones
Nov 23, 2001, 15:10:20
 
I appreciate what RMS has done for free  ...   Must there always be a dictator?   
A Canuck
Nov 23, 2001, 15:17:24
 
Any one can take a phrase out of context ...   I Don't like quote from a lengthy essay.   
Pascal Abessolo
Nov 23, 2001, 15:51:14
 
Stallman (and I, mostly) want nothing mo ...   Freedom to code is quite nice   
Sleepy
Nov 23, 2001, 16:00:20
 
I think you are getting too caught up in ...   Re: Programming and Speech   
tc
Nov 23, 2001, 16:02:10
 
> If you don't like the gpl then don ...   Re: If you don't like it don't use it   
Dean Pannell (a.k.a. dinotrac)
Nov 23, 2001, 16:10:03
 
> Is this a rant against the freedom of  ...   Re: I Don't like quote from a lengthy essay.   
Dean Pannell (a.k.a. dinotrac)
Nov 23, 2001, 16:14:13
 
Read the freakin essay in question!  It& ...   Re: Re: still attacking proprietary software   
kws
Nov 23, 2001, 16:16:19
 
The GPL is not freedom. It locks you in  ...   Re: Creativity and ownership   
bob niederman
Nov 23, 2001, 16:46:29
 
Many people write software because it so ...   Re: Cause and Effect   
kws
Nov 23, 2001, 16:49:17
 
> I wonder what Stallman and Kuhn think  ...   Re: Creativity and ownership   
james
Nov 23, 2001, 16:51:11
 
The user does have the freedom to choose ...   The user does have the freedom to choose.   
SM
Nov 23, 2001, 17:13:13
 
> > ...> > commercial software.  It seem ...   Re: Re: still attacking proprietary software   
Daniel
Nov 23, 2001, 17:31:07
 
Bottom Line:GPL is often cited as poison ...   Yeah, right...   
Anonymous Luser
Nov 23, 2001, 17:31:20
 
Last year Micro$oft placed a help wanted ...   Weapons of Mass Extraction should be outlawed   
Jerry
Nov 23, 2001, 17:44:20
 
I find it interesting that some in the L ...   I beg to differ.   
tc
Nov 23, 2001, 17:49:13
 
Language, spoken and esp written was a t ...   Software is the language for our new brains   
longgoneguin
Nov 23, 2001, 17:50:24
 
> > commercial software.  It seems like  ...   Re: Re: still attacking proprietary software   
Francesco Paparella
Nov 23, 2001, 18:07:43
 
It looks like this is the out-of-context ...   LinuxToday doing M$'s job?   
JCCyC
Nov 23, 2001, 18:37:12
 
I should note that I haven't really  ...   Re: Creativity and ownership   
Rufus Polson
Nov 23, 2001, 18:41:28
 
> RMS continues to astound.  What is the ...   Re: Freedome or Ego?   
Rufus Polson
Nov 23, 2001, 18:47:44
 
... which says free software "is an inte ...   Notice this upsets some MORE than MS talk...   
ac
Nov 23, 2001, 18:50:23
 
There's no such thing as proprietary ...   Re: Creativity and ownership   
Joseph Maher
Nov 23, 2001, 18:52:00
 
> > Is this a rant against the freedom o ...   Re: Re: I Don't like quote from a lengthy essa   
Martin Vermeer
Nov 23, 2001, 19:01:06
 
These are weak excuses to exempt authors ...   Re: Re: I think that what is best for customers   
jedidiah
Nov 23, 2001, 19:08:58
 
> Well, give them points for consistency ...   Re: Again?   
Rufus Polson
Nov 23, 2001, 19:13:05
 
> Freedom and power are intertwined and  ...   Re: Again?   
susesam
Nov 23, 2001, 19:21:16
 
> I understand where Stallman and Kuhn a ...   Re: Not sure I agree   
Rufus Polson
Nov 23, 2001, 19:26:29
 
> > Hope all those bits appreciate them. ...   Re: Re: Re: I Don't like quote from a lengthy   
Dean Pannell (a.k.a. dinotrac)
Nov 23, 2001, 19:39:38
 
> You are free to ADOPT or NOT GPL.And i ...   Re: Re: Creativity and ownership   
mehere
Nov 23, 2001, 19:46:58
 
> some posters seem to have forgetten th ...   Re: context   
Rufus Polson
Nov 23, 2001, 19:47:56
 
> > Is this a rant against the freedom o ...   Re: Re: I Don't like quote from a lengthy essa   
Rufus Polson
Nov 23, 2001, 20:03:35
 
This essay:http://www.gnu.org/philosophy ...   Freedom or Power or Insanity?   
JB Franklin
Nov 23, 2001, 20:09:11
 
Sony, MSFT, Adbe...out of business..Now  ...   Re: Cause and Effect   
Jim Dandy
Nov 23, 2001, 20:11:11
 
> The user does have the freedom to choo ...   Re: The user does have the freedom to choose.   
Rufus Polson
Nov 23, 2001, 20:14:15
 
>I think, one can see, by the links prov ...   Re: I beg to differ.   
Rufus Polson
Nov 23, 2001, 20:34:20
 
> Exaggerating for effect again, Dean.An ...   Re: Re: Re: I Don't like quote from a lengthy   
Dean Pannell (a.k.a. dinotrac)
Nov 23, 2001, 21:50:35
 
> If you go to read the essays on the fs ...   Re: Re: Cause and Effect   
Paul
Nov 23, 2001, 22:12:05
 
I think "Freedom to Harm Society" is wha ...   Freedom to harm society?   
David Horkoff
Nov 23, 2001, 22:32:24
 
Some people seem to be misunderstanding  ...   modification, distribution (Creativity and ownersh   
Mark Allan
Nov 23, 2001, 22:35:14
 
> I'm a Libertarian. I don't wan ...   Re: Sorry, Richard, this is where I get off the bu   
fitzix
Nov 23, 2001, 22:37:55
 
> I wonder what Stallman and Kuhn think  ...   Re: Creativity and ownership   
fitzix
Nov 23, 2001, 22:41:26
 
I've said it before and I'll say ...   RMS and BMK are right on target   
JJS
Nov 23, 2001, 22:44:08
 
> RMS continues to astound.  What is the ...   Re: Freedome or Ego?   
fitzix
Nov 23, 2001, 22:51:27
 
> Well, give them points for consistency ...   Re: Again?   
fitzix
Nov 23, 2001, 22:53:13
 
> It really annoys me the way nobody see ...   Re: Re: The user does have the freedom to choose.   
Paul
Nov 23, 2001, 23:41:36
 
>You have eminant domain to your own wor ...   Re: Re: Again?   
Dean Pannell (a.k.a. dinotrac)
Nov 24, 2001, 01:43:49
 
I just wonder what effect is RMS et. al. ...   Why are all the Linux companies running from GPL&#   
AC
Nov 24, 2001, 02:04:26
 
> My question is this:  Why is it that t ...   Re: I think that what is best for customers   
Jeff
Nov 24, 2001, 02:07:51
 
As a computer owner, I'm happier wit ...   Ownership   
Ed Craig
Nov 24, 2001, 02:19:43
 
> So, then, the finicky question:  would ...   Re: Re: Not sure I agree   
Jeff
Nov 24, 2001, 03:16:48
 
As ESR has said, "freedom" is a heavily  ...   Developer   
loki
Nov 24, 2001, 04:54:09
 
"Obscene profits," I take it, means "mor ...   Re: Re: Cause and Effect   
James Jones
Nov 24, 2001, 05:33:28
 
"If as a developer you have the right to ...   Re: Time for your ILLUSIONS to step down?   
Artistic_angle
Nov 24, 2001, 07:24:37
 
> The wrong way is for them to take that ...   Re: Freedom or Power or Insanity?   
Bo
Nov 24, 2001, 07:49:21
 
> Anybody got any Linux names left?Debia ...   Re: Why are all the Linux companies running from G   
Roger Leigh
Nov 24, 2001, 12:05:09
 
> I just wonder what effect is RMS et. a ...   Re: Why are all the Linux companies running from G   
Remco de Jong
Nov 24, 2001, 13:20:00
 
> When an artist (or coder?) creates a w ...   Re: Re: Re: Not sure I agree   
Dean Pannell (a.k.a. dinotrac)
Nov 24, 2001, 13:45:35
 
> Now how does all this apply to tangibl ...   Re: Re: Time for your ILLUSIONS to step down?   
Dean Pannell (a.k.a. dinotrac)
Nov 24, 2001, 13:53:38
 
> Part of me wants to walk that path wit ...   Re: Re: Re: Re: I Don't like quote from a leng   
Martin Vermeer
Nov 24, 2001, 16:42:37
 
>But I could be wrong.You could also be  ...   Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: I Don't like quote from a   
Dean Pannell (a.k.a. dinotrac)
Nov 24, 2001, 18:57:20
 
"  In the arena of IP, you have rights o ...   Re: Re: Re: Again?   
Artistic_angle
Nov 24, 2001, 19:52:20
 
> Principle?  What principle is that?  I ...   Re: Re: context   
joant
Nov 24, 2001, 19:55:06
 
Thanks to tc, Rufus and many others for  ...   Thanks   
Ganesh Prasad
Nov 25, 2001, 01:01:31
 
Rufus, I think you should read that book ...   Re: Re: Re: context   
David Courtney
Nov 25, 2001, 03:11:32
 
After some reading, rereading, and consi ...   Evolution   
Kirk
Nov 25, 2001, 04:49:55
 
> > I just wonder what effect is RMS et. ...   Re: Re: Why are all the Linux companies running fr   
AC
Nov 25, 2001, 06:42:26
 
> Some people seem to be misunderstandin ...   Re: modification, distribution (Creativity and own   
Rufus Polson
Nov 25, 2001, 07:49:48
 
> "Obscene profits," I take it, means "m ...   Re: Re: Re: Cause and Effect   
Rufus Polson
Nov 25, 2001, 08:09:46
 
>Look at past societies were one did all ...   Re: Re: Re: Re: Again?   
Rufus Polson
Nov 25, 2001, 08:17:07
 
> > Exaggerating for effect again, Dean. ...   Re: Re: Re: Re: I Don't like quote from a leng   
Rufus Polson
Nov 25, 2001, 08:24:11
 
I have said it before but: It's hard ...   well   
ac3
Nov 25, 2001, 10:20:18
 
> > When an artist (or coder?) creates a ...   Re: Re: Re: Re: Not sure I agree   
Martin Vermeer
Nov 25, 2001, 11:04:30
 
Thanksgiving may not be a local holiday  ...   Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: I Don't like quote fro   
Martin Vermeer
Nov 25, 2001, 11:08:24
 
> ... of microsoft eulas granting too fe ...   Re: Re: Re: context   
mercury
Nov 25, 2001, 13:08:21
 
I used to be a programmer and I've l ...   Programmers have to eat   
Marc Perkel
Nov 25, 2001, 16:29:27
 
If Iwrite something sucessful - then eit ...   Re: Programmers have to eat   
Martin Vermeer
Nov 25, 2001, 18:58:52
 
That's highly subjective anyway, as  ...   Lets forget Good vs. Bad for a minute.   
Andrew Grygus
Nov 25, 2001, 19:38:18
 
>   - now, as a developer of "B0" I can& ...   Re: Re: Re: Re: context   
Dean Pannell (a.k.a. dinotrac)
Nov 25, 2001, 19:58:49
 
> > ... of microsoft eulas granting too  ...   Re: Re: Re: Re: context   
joan
Nov 25, 2001, 21:31:57
 
> Take the doctrine of "From each accord ...   Re: Lets forget Good vs. Bad for a minute.   
Dean Pannell (a.k.a. dinotrac)
Nov 25, 2001, 22:26:59
 
HA! This sums it up as far as the evolut ...   Re: Programmers have to eat   
Kirk
Nov 26, 2001, 01:03:18
 
> Take the doctrine of "From each accord ...   Re: Lets forget Good vs. Bad for a minute.   
joan
Nov 26, 2001, 02:42:23
 
> Once the GPL infects,i beg your pardon ...   Re: Creativity and ownership (you sounds like MS)   
PL
Nov 26, 2001, 04:11:29
 
 Of course, the freedom that comes with  ...   No, let's not (Re: Re: Lets forget Good vs. Ba   
Martin Vermeer
Nov 26, 2001, 10:13:21
 
Ah, my professorial Finnish friend,  I s ...   Re: No, let's not (Re: Re: Lets forget Good vs   
Dean Pannell (a.k.a. dinotrac)
Nov 26, 2001, 14:29:29
 
> Ah, my professorial Finnish friend,  I ...   Re: Re: No, let's not (Re: Re: Lets forget Goo   
Martin Vermeer
Nov 26, 2001, 16:30:07
 
It was generous to spend so much time on ...   Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: context   
mercury
Nov 26, 2001, 22:22:11
 
This is really getting interesting. Conv ...   Wow!   
kd
Nov 27, 2001, 00:29:28
 
> 1. Both questions were intended to ill ...   Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: context   
Joan
Nov 27, 2001, 05:04:16
 
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