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:Torvalds: "DRM is Perfectly OK with Linux"
Torvalds: "DRM is Perfectly OK with Linux"
Apr 24, 2003, 13 :00 UTC (43 Talkback[s]) (47396 reads)

(Other stories by Linus Torvalds)

Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 20:59:45 -0700 (PDT)
From: Linus Torvalds <torvalds@transmeta.com>
To: Kernel Mailing List <linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org>
Subject: Flame Linus to a crisp!

-------------------------------

Ok,
there's no way to do this gracefully, so I won't even try. I'm going to just hunker down for some really impressive extended flaming, and my asbestos underwear is firmly in place, and extremely uncomfortable.

I want to make it clear that DRM is perfectly ok with Linux!

There, I've said it. I'm out of the closet. So bring it on...

I've had some private discussions with various people about this already, and I do realize that a lot of people want to use the kernel in some way to just make DRM go away, at least as far as Linux is concerned. Either by some policy decision or by extending the GPL to just not allow it.

In some ways the discussion was very similar to some of the software patent related GPL-NG discussions from a year or so ago: "we don't like it, and we should change the license to make it not work somehow".

And like the software patent issue, I also don't necessarily like DRM myself, but I still ended up feeling the same: I'm an "Oppenheimer", and I refuse to play politics with Linux, and I think you can use Linux for whatever you want to - which very much includes things I don't necessarily personally approve of.

The GPL requires you to give out sources to the kernel, but it doesn't limit what you can _do_ with the kernel. On the whole, this is just another example of why rms calls me "just an engineer" and thinks I have no ideals.

[ Personally, I see it as a virtue - trying to make the world a slightly better place _without_ trying to impose your moral values on other people. You do whatever the h*ll rings your bell, I'm just an engineer who wants to make the best OS possible. ]

In short, it's perfectly ok to sign a kernel image - I do it myself indirectly every day through the kernel.org, as kernel.org will sign the tar-balls I upload to make sure people can at least verify that they came that way. Doing the same thing on the binary is no different: signing a binary is a perfectly fine way to show the world that you're the one behind it, and that _you_ trust it.

And since I can imaging signing binaries myself, I don't feel that I can disallow anybody else doing so.

Another part of the DRM discussion is the fact that signing is only the first step: _acting_ on the fact whether a binary is signed or not (by refusing to load it, for example, or by refusing to give it a secret key) is required too.

But since the signature is pointless unless you _use_ it for something, and since the decision how to use the signature is clearly outside of the scope of the kernel itself (and thus not a "derived work" or anything like that), I have to convince myself that not only is it clearly ok to act on the knowledge of whather the kernel is signed or not, it's also outside of the scope of what the GPL talks about, and thus irrelevant to the license.

That's the short and sweet of it. I wanted to bring this out in the open, because I know there are people who think that signed binaries are an act of "subversion" (or "perversion") of the GPL, and I wanted to make sure that people don't live under mis-apprehension that it can't be done.

I think there are many quite valid reasons to sign (and verify) your kernel images, and while some of the uses of signing are odious, I don't see any sane way to distinguish between "good" signers and "bad" signers.

Comments? I'd love to get some real discussion about this, but in the end I'm personally convinced that we have to allow it.

Btw, one thing that is clearly _not_ allowed by the GPL is hiding private keys in the binary. You can sign the binary that is a result of the build process, but you can _not_ make a binary that is aware of certain keys without making those keys public - because those keys will obviously have been part of the kernel build itself.

So don't get these two things confused - one is an external key that is applied _to_ the kernel (ok, and outside the license), and the other one is embedding a key _into_ the kernel (still ok, but the GPL requires that such a key has to be made available as "source" to the kernel).

Linus

Related Stories:
SideSpace Announces Release of Media-S, First Open-Source DRM Interface(Apr 04, 2003)
ExtremeTech: Glaser: Open Source Is the Answer to the DRM Question(Jan 13, 2003)
LinuxDevices: Embedded Linux Gets Digital Rights Management Support(Jan 10, 2003)
LinuxDevices: Digital Rights Management Issues in Real-Time and Safety/Mission Critical Systems(Oct 14, 2002)


Index Mode   |   Flat Mode   |   Thread Mode   |   Thread Flat  
  Talkback(s) Name  and Date
So, is what you are saying is that this  ...   DRM in Kernel   
Neal Chaves
Apr 24, 2003, 13:38:16
 
don&#39;t understand the keys in the ker ...   he lost me on the last part   
spud
Apr 24, 2003, 13:41:31
 
All he&#39;s saying is that people are a ...   Overly inflammatory title and subject   
Daniel
Apr 24, 2003, 14:00:03
 
> don&#39;t understand the keys in the k ...   Re: he lost me on the last part   
Geoff Lane
Apr 24, 2003, 14:15:41
 
It seems to me Linus is just stating the ...   So what   
MacroRodent
Apr 24, 2003, 14:21:15
 
> don&#39;t understand the keys in the k ...   Re: he lost me on the last part   
Bart Declercq
Apr 24, 2003, 14:24:30
 
He&#39;s just commenting on signing the  ...   Re: he lost me on the last part   
Chuck Johnstone
Apr 24, 2003, 14:25:01
 
I agree with Linus.  As long as the DRM  ...   I agree, as long as ....   
Bruce
Apr 24, 2003, 14:37:18
 
Isn&#39;t it too bad that more individua ...   Just an Engineer   
tc
Apr 24, 2003, 14:44:46
 
> I agree with Linus.  As long as the DR ...   Re: I agree, as long as .... Question?   
Nicholas Donovan
Apr 24, 2003, 14:58:48
 
> don&#39;t understand the keys in the k ...   Re: he lost me on the last part   
Chris Bruner
Apr 24, 2003, 15:11:56
 
So let&#39;s say that someone, say Red H ...   signing   
Charles Hixson
Apr 24, 2003, 15:17:25
 
Linux DRM patents, what else!It wouldn&# ...   Fresh off the TPO grill, get'm while they are   
GreyGeek
Apr 24, 2003, 15:24:17
 
> Isn&#39;t it too bad that more individ ...   Re: Just an Engineer   
Nicholas Donovan
Apr 24, 2003, 15:34:40
 
> they would focus on improving their pr ...   Re: Just an Engineer   
Dean Pannell (a.k.a. dinotrac)
Apr 24, 2003, 16:05:34
 
> Isn&#39;t it too bad that more individ ...   Re: Just an Engineer   
Erik
Apr 24, 2003, 16:13:09
 
Doesn&#39;t the GPL only require to prov ...   Re: signing   
fred
Apr 24, 2003, 16:22:19
 
> > don&#39;t understand the keys in the ...   Re: Re: he lost me on the last part   
Rufus Polson
Apr 24, 2003, 16:34:43
 
For people that don&#39;t see what the b ...   What this means is:   
Ciaran O Riordan
Apr 24, 2003, 16:43:31
 
> Isn&#39;t it too bad that more individ ...   Re: Just an Engineer   
Rufus Polson
Apr 24, 2003, 16:51:13
 
Huh?OpenBSD also states that you can use ...   Re: So what   
Brent Graveland
Apr 24, 2003, 16:58:10
 
> This isn&#39;t a GPL violation but I h ...   Re: What this means is:   
Rufus Polson
Apr 24, 2003, 17:00:04
 
> > they would focus on improving their  ...   Re: Re: Just an Engineer   
tc
Apr 24, 2003, 17:06:40
 
> Where does that leave you on the linki ...   Re: Re: Re: he lost me on the last part   
Dean Pannell (a.k.a. dinotrac)
Apr 24, 2003, 17:30:07
 
> Linus is unlikely to adopt GPL-v3He ha ...   Re: Re: What this means is:   
Ciaran O Riordan
Apr 24, 2003, 17:35:40
 
than what is being done in the Windows W ...   Good, now lets show a better implementation of DRM   
guindaloo
Apr 24, 2003, 17:58:43
 
"...it&#39;s that bastards are the kind  ...   Linus and RMS   
Daryl
Apr 24, 2003, 18:02:46
 
Better yet if more business just thought ...   Re: Just an Engineer   
Jim
Apr 24, 2003, 18:46:39
 
> > Isn&#39;t it too bad that more indiv ...   Re: Re: Just an Engineer   
Roger Rabbit
Apr 24, 2003, 19:39:25
 
> Some companies, like Red Hat, explicit ...   Re: Re: Just an Engineer   
Roger Rabbit
Apr 24, 2003, 19:43:54
 
>What&#39;s too bad is that more individ ...   Re: Re: Just an Engineer   
Roger Rabbit
Apr 24, 2003, 20:12:31
 
How can you make a *better* DRM?  How ca ...   Re: Good, now lets show a better implementation of   
Matthew C. Tedder
Apr 24, 2003, 21:58:37
 
> I&#39;m curious about one thing: is th ...   Re: Re: Re: Just an Engineer   
markkuk
Apr 24, 2003, 22:44:31
 
Linus is more than a little worried abou ...   Errr... am I missing something here?   
tsoweather
Apr 25, 2003, 05:56:50
 
> > I&#39;m curious about one thing: is  ...   Re: Re: Re: Re: Just an Engineer   
Roger Rabbit
Apr 25, 2003, 06:35:26
 
I&#39;m curious about one thing: is the  ...   Re: Re: Re: Just an Engineer   
Wol
Apr 25, 2003, 08:51:45
 
I agree that if there is an embedded sig ...   Embedded signature   
Grahame Jordan
Apr 27, 2003, 01:38:48
 
Hi,First of all, I&#39;d like to say som ...   GPLing other aspects of our live   
Eduard Pertinez
Apr 28, 2003, 09:03:37
 
DRM Technologies and the rest …It is one ...   DRM   
George H
May 1, 2003, 15:40:50
 
 Royalties is for Royalty  The fact is t ...   Royalties is for Royalty   
George H
May 1, 2003, 20:46:04
 
The fact about GPL software is if you pr ...   GPL Stuff   
George H
May 2, 2003, 00:45:50
 
Mammmon, the avaricious beelzebub.http:/ ...   DRM = Directly Related to Mammon.   
Christine L.
Oct 1, 2005, 02:23:01
 
I pretty much agree with Linus. While I  ...   Well put.   
michael k
Jan 26, 2006, 17:50:49
 
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